National Assembly for Wales (Legislative Competence) (Social Welfare) Order 2008

My Lords, this has been a helpful and important debate on the legislative competence order before us. Again, the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, gave us a great description of how the process works and reminded us that we should not congratulate ourselves too much, because we are creating potential rather than passing legislation. It was a clear explanation, and I am grateful to him for it. It is good to hear from my noble friend Lord Jones that there are some happy customers out here. This is the beginning of this LCO process. Before this potential legislation even gets as far as becoming a real Welsh Assembly measure, there will be a significant level of consultation. That is the Welsh Assembly Government’s intention. I will briefly answer the question of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, on local authority discretion. From the Government’s point of view, removing what we would describe as local authorities’ current wide-ranging discretion on how much to charge for non-residential social care is, I am afraid, unavoidable if the Assembly Government are to address the present significant disparities and introduce a fairer and more consistent approach to charging. That is the reality of this LCO; the noble Lord, Lord Livsey, highlighted his concerns about that. However, we must remember that, for local authorities in Wales, only 15 per cent of the cost of providing these non-residential services is recovered by the charges. So we must have some perspective and a sense of proportion over the concerns about the effect on local authority funding that the noble Lord raised. It is useful to note that we are talking about 15,000 individuals currently being levied a charge for these services; that is the order of magnitude. Still, we are talking about a significant concern for the people of Wales. There is a clear discrepancy between charges, which sometimes occurs in localities situated close to each other, whereby people can be charged £16.50 on the one hand and £168 on the other. We are talking about significant ranges. As noble Lords pointed out, we are giving the Welsh Assembly the opportunity to legislate on this matter. The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, asked what criteria would be established regarding the changes in charging. That is a matter for the Welsh Assembly to decide. The objective is clear and is set out in the LCO, but the content of the relevant measure, and the range of criteria that might be included, will be decided by the Welsh Assembly. It is essential that consultation is carried out as the measure will be very much made in Wales. I commend the order to the House. On Question, Motion agreed to.