Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

I rise in part to speak to the Joint Committee on Human Rights reports that have been tagged to today's debate, all of which start from the basic premise that we have a duty to protect the public from terrorism and violence. As has been said, it is important to recognise that the 28-day extension was to be an exception and that, as my right hon. Friend the Minister said, it amounted to a compromise. If we are considering extending that exception, we have to proceed with caution and consider the matter properly, bearing in mind that the power has not been used for at least a year since it was last renewed. It is Parliament's duty to scrutinise the Government's request, as put forward in the order. I for one would not try to second-guess the Government's assessment, although that is not primarily because of the reason advanced by the hon. Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Mr. Ruffley) about evidence to support the Government's case; rather, it is simply that we have practically no evidence at all, one way or the other, of how the 28-day rule has operated in practice, on the very few occasions on which it has been used. Of course, we have plenty of evidence about the general level of the terrorist threat, but that is a red herring in this debate, because the 28-day power comes into effect only once a plot has crystallised and those involved have been arrested, and once it has been shown that the 14-day period is inadequate for their questioning. What we need to consider is not the general level of the threat, but cases where people have been arrested, questioned and ultimately charged. To enable Parliament to review the issues properly and effectively, we need a detailed and meaningful analysis. I had hoped that the independent reviewer would be in a position to provide that. The Government said that it was the intention to provide the independent reviewer's report before the renewal debate. They are as good as their word, because it was published this morning, although that has not really given hon. Members enough time to scrutinise properly what the independent review has to say, never mind the time for a Select Committee such as mine or the Home Affairs Committee to read what he had to say. I hope that in future the Government will make the report available 28 days before the debate, as we have recommended, so that it can be properly considered. Indeed, it was a pity that the report was not available for the debates a couple of weeks ago, because the independent reviewer has brought forward useful information for both sides of the argument, as it were, on 42 days. We now have the independent reviewer's report, but he says nothing at all about the use of the 28-day procedure. In his 2006 report, he did not give any detail at all—not even the number of cases—about the 28-day cases in that period. In paragraph 103 of his report, he says:"““I have not been asked by Ministers to provide a detailed analysis of this system. It would be difficult for me to do so in any meaningful way without becoming effectively embedded in some cases from arrest to verdict, to gain the full picture. This has not been part of the reviewer's tasks, but could be included if required by Parliament. I should welcome clarity as to whether this is required””." I am sure that we would all welcome clarity on that issue. Someone needs to get into these cases to find out what has been going on, so as to avoid the kind of speculation that my right hon. Friend the Minister says is coming forward from Liberty's putting two and two together to make five about what has been going on. The only way in which we can answer these questions is by having an independent person who can get into the meat and find out what has gone on. My right hon. Friend has indicated, in response to our recommendation that there should be an detailed annual report from the Home Secretary, that the Government will put a memorandum in the Library containing relevant information, such as the breakdown of detention periods and the charges that have been brought. In fact, we have no information on any of the cases from the past two years, except for the fact that the power has not been used at all since it was last renewed a year ago. We need to have some facts, however, as is made clear in Lord Carlile's report. We know that six people have been held for the maximum period, as my right hon. Friend said, and that three have been charged and are awaiting trial. That obviously means that three were released when they came up against the 28-day wire. Once the cases that have been prosecuted are over, we shall need to analyse them to find out what evidence was available and at what stage. My right hon. Friend has attacked Liberty for saying that the charges should have been brought earlier. It may well be that those individuals could have been charged within 14 days on the threshold charge basis, but that the Crown Prosecution Service decided to hang on to see whether it could get sufficient evidence to bring a full code charge within 28 days. I am not saying that that is right or wrong as a factual analysis, or indeed whether it is desirable to hold people longer in order to bring a full code charge as opposed to a threshold charge. We simply do not know. In future debates on renewal—assuming that we have such occasions—we need to be able to discuss whether it is better to hold people longer to get a full code charge than to charge them on a threshold basis at the earliest opportunity. That is a debate that we ought to have in Parliament as part of the way in which these cases are dealt with. As Lord Carlile says, one of the problems with a threshold charge is that it could amount to an abuse, although in practice I do not think that that has been the case, as my Committee noted in its previous report on the 42-day issue. We need to know when and how often people are being questioned, although I accept that that is not conclusive in relation to the need to hold someone for a particular period. Most of an inquiry is taken up not by questioning but by other activities such as breaking down computers, analysing phone records and making inquiries overseas. The fact remains, however, that we need to know the answers to these questions. The hon. and learned Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve) gave us some figures on that when we were looking at the post-charge questioning issue a couple of weeks ago. On that basis, people were not questioned for any great length of time in the 28-day period, if his figures were right. We need to know what was going on in that regard. We also need to know what charges were ultimately brought, the reasons why those charges were chosen and, ultimately, whether the individuals were convicted. That is the kind of detailed, qualitative analysis that we need when we are having these renewal debates, to ensure that the 28-day power is being used properly and that any exceptional extensions are appropriate. We must also remember the three people who were not charged. There is no reason why we should not start to carry out some of this analysis of their cases now. For example, we could find out what interviewing took place and over what period, and whether the investigation was conducted with the urgency required of the system. I make no allegations as to whether it was or not; I am quite happy to accept my right hon. Friend's word that it was conducted with urgency. However, that is his assurance—