Counter-Terrorism Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

The hon. Gentleman makes a real point that I do not underestimate, and we all have to work out where we stand on the issue. All I can say is that I disagree, but I do not dismiss his argument as nonsense; it is not but, all in all, I prefer to leave such decisions to the judge. On this matter, reasonable-minded Members must agree to disagree and vote accordingly. My final point featured in Committee as the ““McNulty issue””, although I assure you, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we were talking about a wholly fictional character and not the Minister. Our debate had to do with forfeiture that is capable of affecting innocent third parties. The terrorism offences specified in the Bill are quite extensive, and I suggested in Committee that a garage proprietor had been convicted of one. In my story, the entirely fictional McNulty had lodged his car for repair with that proprietor and, unhappily—but as might easily happen in real life—his vehicle had been used in connection with a terrorism offence. I said that the prosecution authorities in the case sought a forfeiture order, and that Mr. McNulty was naturally very upset because it meant that he would lose his car. My amendments Nos. 20, 92 and 93 would ensure that the court would have to give Mr. McNulty ample opportunity to make representations, and that it would not make a forfeiture order if he could establish that he owned the car and show that such an order would be unjust. One other short point in respect of forfeiture orders is worthy of note. When such an order is made against a convicted person, the court is directed to have regard to the impact that it will have on that person. Other considerations, such as the value of the forfeiture, must also be taken into account. I am anxious to ensure that the court should also have regard to the interests of any person who might be dependent on the convicted person. I have in mind dependent children, or an innocent dependent spouse. The interests of such persons are easy to disregard, but it is our purpose and duty to try to enshrine in statute law a proper protection for them. I have set out the three issues to which I wished to draw attention, and I commend them to the House.