Counter-Terrorism Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

I want to address three matters. I shall begin with a comment on amendment No. 112, which was tabled by the Liberal Democrats. I agree entirely with my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Grieve). Let us take a comparable case, which I cited to the hon. Member for Carshalton and Wallington (Tom Brake), namely one in which there is a plea of guilty in a murder case. The hon. Gentleman will remember that a schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 2003 provides an approach to sentencing with a starting point of 15 years and provides aggravating and mitigating circumstances. It is relatively easy to drive up the tariff, if I may so call it, to 30 years. In other words, there can be a huge variation between the starting point and the end sentence. That rather takes account of the point made by the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath). The disparity can be great, yet on a plea of guilty the issue of whether there are sufficient aggravating factors to drive the minimum sentence up to the high figure of 30 years, for example, is exclusively a matter for the judge. There is no role for a jury in such murder cases. Given that, I find it hard to see why, as a matter of principle, we need a specific provision for the jury in a terrorist case in which there is a guilty plea, when we do not have one for the jury in a murder case. Therefore, I am inclined to think that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Beaconsfield is entirely right on that point.