Counter-Terrorism Bill (Programme) (No. 2)

I think that the hon. Member for Stockton, South (Ms Taylor) slightly misled herself, inasmuch as she directed her remarks in this debate on the guillotine motion to what took place in Committee upstairs. The point was well made that the majority of Members were not on the Public Bill Committee, so the rules that govern the Committee are outside our knowledge; we know of what happened only from printed reports in Hansard. We are considering the motion before us. The point was well made by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Bone): there is essentially a hollowing-out of the purpose of Parliament. We simply do not discuss the most major pieces of legislation that bear on our constituents. I am glad that the hon. Member for Stockton, South spoke, because she is sitting in roughly the place where the late, great Gwyneth Dunwoody sat. Of course, she would have had no truck with the nonsense that the Government have brought forward. In a sense, our only function is to attest that we have looked at the legislation and think, on balance, that it is, or is not, appropriate for the nation. Hon. Friends of mine have mentioned that the Bill touches on one of the most fundamental things that makes us British: freedom. We are to discharge the issue not after consideration of what is appropriate for debate, but merely at the mandate of the Government. We have had the opportunity to discuss the programme motion, albeit for just 45 minutes, because the Government decided to amend the original guillotine motion. To an extent, I am grateful that they had to amend it, because it gives Members a small opportunity to express their contempt for the way in which business is now conducted. It breaks a trust, and it gives something to the other Chamber: it makes it legitimate for the Lords to argue that what they are doing is in the national interest, whereas we who are commissioned to represent those who vote and send us here are unable to do that. There is a psychological difference between those on the Government's Front Bench and people such as me. I see the Minister for Security, Counter-Terrorism, Crime and Policing gladly pointing his finger at people, but it makes no difference. The fact remains that Back Benchers in this House are often unable to argue about things that bear directly on our constituents. However high the Government ride, and however strong they may feel for a moment, the House still exists. For their authority, money and existence, the Government depend on the sentiment of the House, which ultimately reflects the sentiment of the country. The guillotine motion should be thrown out.