Torture (Damages) Bill [HL]

My Lords, at the end of a debate like this it is conventional to begin by thanking all noble Lords who have participated. I do so today, although not conventionally but from the bottom of my heart. I thank so many noble Lords for the support they have offered. I am bound to say that I agree with my noble friend Lord Hunt that this may go down in history as one of the debates most worthy of the traditions of this House. I am also very grateful to all those who have made kind remarks about me personally. The fact that most of them are undeserved does not entail that they are unappreciated. I should explain that I have three pages of notes from the debate. If I do not elaborate on all of them, I hope that noble Lords will find it in their heart to forgive me. Perhaps I may pick up one or two comments briefly. The first is from the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, who told us that at the beginning of the 20th century, it was thought that there was no longer a problem of torture. It had gone, and Victor Hugo elaborated on it in his usual style. We thought some time ago that we had got rid of tuberculosis, but the fact is that we cannot just sit back and forget about these matters because there is something about eternal vigilance. The reasons that torture has become a problem again have been elaborated on by a number of noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, pointed out that this country affords sanctuary to refugees, which in itself imposes on us an obligation to ensure that when they are here, we recognise their needs. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, said that now far more international travel is undertaken by a far larger number of people, while the noble Lord, Lord Sheikh, pointed out that this is a corollary to a number of our other policies, such as that which attempts to discourage extraordinary rendition. As the noble Lords, Lord Thomas of Gresford and Lord Kingsland, pointed out, it is curious that there should be a need for this debate. There are jurisdictions where a right to reparation follows a criminal conviction and there is an almost artificial distinction in discussing whether we are talking about criminal or civil proceedings. My noble friend Lord Judd, with his normal sensitivity, warned us against what he called turning human suffering into an arid academic disputation. I am sure that my noble friend will be the first to say that the word ““academic”” is not necessarily a term of abuse. There are matters we should discuss—such as where the burden of proof should be in relation to forum nonconveniens and limitation—and I am tempted to advert to them now, but I shall leave that to a later stage. The noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, properly pointed out that international law is not an inert body but a living organism. It develops, it reacts to new situations and new standards and, like all living organisms, it grows. That is something we have to recognise. Ultimately, as the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, pointed out, the real purpose of this legislation is to assure victims that torture is not normal; as we would proclaim to the world, it is wicked and abominable. If the Bill achieves that, it will have been worthwhile. The noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, and the noble Baroness said that this is the beginning of a journey. It is a narrow Bill but, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, indicated, perhaps it can punch above its weight. On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.