Housing and Regeneration Bill

It has been an interesting debate and I have learnt a great deal in the process. I am not sure that I will add very much to that sum of knowledge. This will not be the first time that I shall say how grateful I am to my noble friend Lady Ford for showing how, in practice, much of what we are trying to achieve with the HCA has been successfully anticipated in English Partnerships. It is important that staff members of the agency are allowed to participate fully in some committees. Reference has been made to executive committees and we spoke earlier about the importance of expertise and practical, on-the-ground knowledge. That knowledge also needs to be in committees, as appropriate. A practical example is the finance committee that currently exists for English Partnerships. I know noble Lords will agree that it is right and proper that the finance director for English Partnerships is allowed to sit and participate in that committee and take part in decisions. If the amendment were agreed to, that simply would not be possible. As my noble friend Lady Ford said, the HCA will have numerous committees and sub-committees. We have a practical problem here because if we do not have expert staff supporting the work of those committees, we will have to have a much bigger board. Quite simply, there will not be enough people to cover the HCA’s wide range of responsibilities. We have already spoken about the Milton Keynes English Partnerships committee. I imagine it would have been a serious disability if there had not been that member of staff on EP helping to direct and shape expenditure and growth in the area covered by the partnership. I would not like to see the amendment knock that out of play. It should be remembered that the chief executive is a staff member. He also sits on the board and that is considered good practice by Cabinet Office guidance. That is another thing that would be lost under the amendment. On the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilkins, the London sub-committee will be an extremely important part of the HCA board. The noble Baroness is quite right, the chief executive will be the vice-chair of the committee and the Mayor of London will act as the chair. For all the reasons that the noble Baroness knows from her wide experience of governing London, we see the chief executive’s position as absolutely essential, given the challenge posed by housing and regeneration in the city. The intention is that the committee will report to the HCA board on the scope and level of work undertaken by the agency in London, and the involvement of the chief executive will help to ensure that it meets the needs and requirements. The specific arrangements for that sub-committee are still being decided. I shall turn to the final amendment in this group and pick up some of the points that the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, made. In it, the noble Baroness seeks to ensure that staff members cannot easily become full members of committee. Clause 6(4) of Schedule 1 would allow staff members to become members of a committee or sub-committee, but only with the express approval of the Secretary of State and, given what the noble Viscount has said about the role of the Secretary of State, I cannot believe that he would welcome that. It would certainly create an additional workload, and it is inappropriate for the Secretary of State to be involved at that level of detail. It does not make any sense. We, like him, expect that matters of this sort will be discussed and agreed amicably. For example, we will be discussing the role of key staff, such as the chief executive and the financial director, in the internal governance committees in the HCA and the role that staff will play. This will be managed sensibly, but the board will be accountable to the Secretary of State for the operations of the agency, with the staff being accountable to the board, subject to their overall accountability to the Secretary of State. I shall not repeat myself, but I hope that that response helps to clarify the roles we expect members and staff of the HCA to play in relation to committees and sub-committees. The noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, asked whether we know of any directions that have been issued in this context. My noble friend Lady Ford referred to the direction that has been required for the Milton Keynes partnership. I do not know of any others. Although the power is in the Bill, it is extremely unlikely that the Secretary of State would issue directions on a matter such as committee procedures. It might be necessary in extremely rare cases, but it is very unlikely, let alone routine. The amendments would prevent the HCA playing the full role that it needs to play, bearing in mind that it will need the full support and expertise of its staff. I believe that to have staff on the right committees, as appropriate, would be an important part of its ability to respond to the challenges that face it.