Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008

My Lords, as I listened to the noble Baroness, it crossed my mind that that is a very obvious point. There probably is a response and I shall write to her, because her question is reasonable. I turn to the statistics. Between 2005 and 2007, 23 girls aged 17 were held in women’s prisons. I do not dismiss the figure; I am just giving the House the information. I mentioned that the consultation process had been lengthy in response to complaints that this has taken a long time, and I fully accept that. But I also make the point that now we have these provisions ready, the people of Northern Ireland are entitled to benefit from them. I can deal with some of the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, but I shall have to write to him on others. The noble Lord gave examples to demonstrate why he is opposed to test purchase powers, but these powers are not new. They already exist around tobacco and solvent abuse for the purpose of protecting young people, and I am fairly confident about them. The vociferousness of the youngsters who raised the issue with me and the fact that it can be carefully managed gives me confidence, although I understand that some people might be placed in a difficult position. However, the noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, has fired a warning shot, and therefore those who operate the system will have to be incredibly careful and ensure that it is well managed. It is not entrapment, but legitimate crime detection. Off-licence sellers of alcohol have to be put on notice that selling to underage youngsters will get them in real trouble and put them at risk of losing their livelihood. Our priority is to reduce such sales. We can give warnings and advance notice of schemes in an area, and we can issue warnings for initial non-compliance. The participants will not mislead licence holders. It is a perfectly legitimate procedure and is used in other circumstances to protect young people. The noble Lord rightly raised important points about vulnerable young offenders. The system already allows the police considerable discretion and we know that they operate with these factors in mind. Within this order are specific requirements should such young people come to court. This is important in relation to inquiry, mental health and other medical reports, which will also ensure that prosecutions are brought appropriately. No doubt the defence and the prosecution will have to take account of this, as will judges. The noble Lord raised a fair point. I am very grateful for all the supportive comments. I cannot go through everything in detail, but I am very grateful. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, did not quite use the word, but he implied that the Assembly was subcontracting some of its work. I do not think it is that. Having been so long without the process, it makes sense to use the best possible help and advice around because it wants to make early progress. It wants some wins for the people of Northern Ireland to show that devolution makes a difference to people’s lives. I cannot comment on the help and assistance it has requested, but I think that that is its judgment. When the Assembly becomes more stable and more mature in the process of legislation, I am sure more can be done in-house. The noble Lord also asked about the consequential amendment order. I am advised that the references are correct and we will write to confirm this, so the point is well made. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, asked about the compassionate release power. It will continue to build on the temporary release powers that correctly exist to allow short-term release. I fully accept his point. He gave a very good example of the difficulty for a Minister asked to make a decision, probably within a few hours, and receiving conflicting advice. It is not his day job; he is the duty Minister, covering for others. That is the dilemma. I suppose that in some ways that is what Ministers are for—a judgment has to be made. In this case it was made successfully, but it would not have been unsuccessful if it had gone wrong. You have to make a judgment and then be responsible for it. Prisoners can get out temporarily for urgent family matters, subject to risk assessment, and that would have been the case there. But it is a compassionate power and can allow for example, terminally ill prisoners to be dealt with in a compassionate way. It is a package around the whole process. On the noble Lord’s final point, I can say with all the certainty that my note allows me that musical horns are banned in Northern Ireland so there should be no difficulty. The noble Lord, Lord Laird, raised the issue of prosecutions. He raised some examples, but that is a matter for the prosecution authorities. They are independent and are not responsible for operational matters relating to us. He said that he would pursue this via Questions for Written Answer, as he is entitled to do. I hope that I have covered all the other issues that I have written down. I am very grateful for the support and to all the people who participated in this, because this has taken several years. Literally hundreds of people were involved in the consultation, leaving aside the vast petition in Northern Ireland. On Question, Motion agreed to.