Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order 2008

My Lords, I, too, thank the Minister for introducing the orders. Once again it falls to these Benches to be a little more robust in questioning him. We have only about 40 minutes to discuss this major piece of legislation. It is disappointing that such measures are not being introduced in primary legislation, although I accept that the Minister has engaged in long and detailed consultation on the issues in Northern Ireland. However, some of them are controversial. Prisoners also have rights and we must all recognise that, as it is the measure of a civilised and democratic society. Introducing indeterminate sentencing has proved to be highly problematic in England and Wales. Imprisonment for public protection—IPP—can be applied to 153 serious offences. That is a huge number when you compare it with the 11 offences that bring an automatic life sentence into effect. These provisions are being tested all the time. The Court of Appeal has said that courts should presume that anyone convicted of one of the offences, and who has previous convictions, is dangerous unless the conclusion reached would be unreasonable. At least a little sense has prevailed in the Northern Ireland legislation, for which I am grateful, in that there will be a minimum tariff of at least 12 months for an extended custodial sentence, an ECS, and a two-year minimum tariff for an indeterminate custodial sentence, an ICS. Will Northern Ireland be able to resource the IPPs better than appeared to be the case in England and Wales? That follows the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, about resourcing. An IPP can be compared with a life sentence in that it involves a minimum prison term, after which a prisoner has to undergo some behaviour management courses. Only then can he or she be released at the discretion of the Parole Board. The release is on licence for 10 years at least, it is under supervision and it takes place only if the Parole Board considers that it is safe to release that person. Can the Minister assure me that the courses offered in behaviour management will be sufficient in number and robust enough for people to demonstrate that they are fit for release? My noble friend Lady Linklater of Butterstone told us last year of a case in which she had been involved, which entailed a prisoner with a 28-day tariff being denied the courses that he needed to enable him to have a review by the Parole Board, because the courses simply were not available. What provisions have been put in place to ensure that this sort of thing will not happen in Northern Ireland? I understand that problems have also arisen in HMP Maghaberry and HMP Magilligan, because there have not been sufficient offending behaviour programmes or places available on courses there to meet the needs of prisoners. Has that situation changed? The Minister will know of the High Court decision in July last year that it was unlawful to hold prisoners when they could not access courses that were designed to address their offending behaviour and prove that they were fit for release. I understand that £40 million has been made available for the implementation of the new sentencing provisions. What will the breakdown of that money look like? On these Benches, we have always maintained that it is of primary importance to ensure that those in need of therapeutic care do not end up in prison. Will the Northern Ireland Prison Service be able to deal with the provisions of the order in terms of meeting the many and varied needs of those prisoners in custody for an indeterminate period who have physical and mental problems? Will it have the skills to enable it to prove that prisoners are safe to be released? Can the Minister say what work has been done in this area? Will the new sentencing and licensing arrangements be subject to review, as recommended by the Assembly’s ad hoc committee that looked at these matters? I, too, welcome the supervised activity orders set out in Article 45. This is a good idea and is a good alternative to custody for fine defaulters. As the Minister said, the previous situation was always ridiculous. When I was a magistrate, I found the notion that one had to put people in prison because they defaulted on payment of a fine iniquitous. In Northern Ireland, between September 2005 and February 2007, 44 per cent of women who were sent to prison were there because they were fine defaulters. That cannot possibly be right. I hope that access to the provisions in these orders is uniformly administered. It would be iniquitous for them to be available in some places and not others. Is the probation service in Northern Ireland satisfied that it is being given sufficient resources to enable it to use these provisions equitably? The noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, made that point. The Assembly committee also recommended that sentencers be given adequate training in how to deal with indeterminate sentencing. Can the Minister assure us that that training is being given? Finally, I quote what the Northern Ireland Assembly’s report on the draft Criminal Justice (Northern Ireland) Order said on youth justice, which is dealt with under Articles 94 to 98. The report states: "““In relation to the juvenile justice provisions in Article 95, the Committee received evidence from Criminal Justice Inspection and NIACRO who thought that the Article as drafted put the emphasis the wrong way round as children would be referred to Hydebank Wood Young Offenders Centre where Inspectors regard the regime on offer as gravely inadequate. CJI believed that, on the contrary, the presumption should be that 17-year-old males should be sent to the Juvenile Justice Centre unless either there is no room for them there or they are so difficult to manage that the JJC cannot cope with them. Females under 18 should not, in any circumstances that CJI could envisage, be sent to Ash House””." The Minister has indicated that females will, indeed, not go there. I am concerned about the young males and I would be grateful if the Minister would reflect on that matter.