Counter-Terrorism Bill

I will not go through the particular safeguards, because the hon. Member for Eastleigh (Chris Huhne) has outlined them. In his evidence to the Committee, the Director of Public Prosecutions said that intercept evidence would be useful along with the acceptance of the Chilcot review. My Committee recommended more specialisation within the Crown Prosecution Service drawing on experience overseas of the examining magistrates system, which has actually happened. My Committee called for more active case management in judicial intervention in 2006. In part, that was an attempt to deal with defence tactics such as the suspects all choosing the same lawyer, which makes it difficult to conduct inquiries. In 2006, the DPP suggested that incentives should be introduced for people to give evidence, which might involve appropriate safeguards, lower sentences and witness protection. When we visited Paddington Green, the lack of availability of police bail was mentioned—of course, police bail would not apply to major suspects, flight risks or key players. It was stated that there are often people on the fringes who are not flight risks—perhaps they were involved in funding—whose computers could be broken down while they are on police bail, subject to strenuous conditions such as those used with control orders. That recommendation came from the police who deal with such cases. So far, the Government response to that package has been to pick holes in each individual suggestion, and they have not been prepared to consider the package in its entirety. However, they have accepted that some parts of the package would reduce the pressure to go beyond 28 days. We have experience of the 28-day limit with regard to the airline plot. Six people were held beyond 14 days. Three of them, as we have heard, were released just before 28 days and were innocent, and two of them were charged just before 28 days with acts preparatory to terrorism on the threshold charge basis. So far, because those cases have not come to trial yet, there has been no qualitative analysis of what went on in the police stations—there has been speculation—and we need to see that. The DPP has said that it has managed reasonably comfortably with 28 days, and chief prosecutor Sue Hemmings told my Committee that 28 days has proved to be sufficient. The Government have not made their case. The consensus approach has been commendable, but my Committee produced a 101-paragraph report on the 42-day issue to which the Government responded in a mere four paragraphs without answering any of our arguments. MI5 refused to appear before my Committee. It is happy to appear before a committee of editors, but it will not answer questions about the level of threat. MI5 has said that there are a lot more plots and suspects. If there are in fact more plots, it is, of course, worrying, but it could be that MI5 is more aware of the plots that already exist, which is safer. Unless we can probe that point with MI5, we do not know the answer to that question. It seems to my Committee that the level of threat is more or less the same as it was when we dealt with 28 days in this House. We have heard the arguments about a doomsday scenario—three 9/11s on one day—which would be a civil emergency. My Committee criticised the argument about the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, because the 2004 Act does not provide for pre-charge detention. However, it would not be impossible to amend the 2004 Act, if necessary, to deal with that particular issue. There is, of course, an impact on the communities affected. The Government response to our point on threshold charging stated:"““Communities most likely to be affected may react adversely if they perceive that terrorist cases are uniquely charged on a lower evidence threshold.””" That is precisely the point in relation to the problems that would follow the introduction of 42-day detention. The key point is not whether the power is actually used, because the decision in principle would have that effect. No additional judicial safeguards have been proposed, and the existing safeguards on 28 days are already inadequate. A statement to Parliament and approval by Parliament are not good enough, and we cannot debate those issues properly without prejudicing a trial. Consider how many times in this debate already we have been reminded of the sub judice rule. How on earth can we actually discuss in any meaningful way on a whipped vote the question of somebody's liberty or continued detention? It is simply not possible to go into the level of detail necessary to consider whether a time limit should be extended for the purposes of a particular investigation. That approach confuses parliamentary and judicial functions. My Committee wants to see additional safeguards on 28 days. At the moment, the judge is not even allowed to question the basis of the arrest and whether there were reasonable grounds for the arrest. The judicial procedure is not a fully adversarial hearing, and we think that there should be special advocates for the closed part of the hearing and that restrictions on disclosure should be at least subject to an overriding requirement that the hearing be fair. On habeas corpus, my Committee believes that this Bill and previous legislation exclude habeas corpus. The Government say that there has been no legal challenge, but in fact there was in the case of Nabeel Hussain. The High Court said that it could not review a decision by a High Court judge, and it also found that the warrant of further detention hearing was a judicial hearing. An application for habeas corpus would therefore be struck out as an abuse of process, because of that very judicial hearing. Many other aspects of the Bill need improvement: post-charge questioning requires further consideration; threshold charging needs more safeguards; the control order regime needs to be looked at; and special advocates are also important. My Committee is extremely concerned about inquests, but I have insufficient time to discuss that matter, except to say that public interest immunity law could provide the answer, because it can apply to inquests. My Committee will table amendments to give effect to the sort of things that we think should be implemented, based on our previous reports, and I will support the Second Reading of the Bill tonight in order to have that opportunity.