European Union (Amendment) Bill

My Lords, my old Chief Whip, the late Lord Harris of Greenwich, when I was his deputy, used to say to me when a difficult vote was in the offing: ““Do stop them listening to the debate””. My natural tendency in your Lordships’ House, probably appropriate for a generalist and hereditary Peer, is to listen to debates. I have listened to this debate with great care, and I have to say something which I have never admitted in the House before, because it has never happened to me before. Without having had, as it were, a Pauline conversion, my views are substantially different now from what they were at this time yesterday. Four speeches have impressed me to such an extent that it is not certain whether I shall be supporting, as I originally intended, a referendum on the treaty. I could have torn up my speech and gone home, but I was reported in the Daily Telegraph as seemingly at odds with those on my Benches in what I intended to do. I made a jocular remark to them about avoiding the dark looks of my colleagues, but I said that I intended to vote for a referendum and that I would speak if I felt brave enough. I have been brave enough. Actually I do not know whether it is bravery, but I have been moved. I should like to explain which speeches gave me the most reason to change my view. The first speech was that of my old friend Lord Hannay, and I say old friend because we have known each other for many years. As one would expect from a diplomat of his eminence and his knowledge of Europe, with which he has been connected, he made a balanced and moderate speech. He exploded many of my fears especially about the apparently likely transfer of powers from this country to Europe. More importantly, I was affected by his comments on referendums. I have never liked referendums. I think that I share that view with most of my colleagues—who are now actually smiling at me. In a representative democracy such as ours, why elect MPs and so on if we are to have referendums, and why even consider a referendum except on a vital issue? The noble Lord’s point was that other treaties were perhaps more deserving of a referendum, but he does not agree that it would have been appropriate in those cases either. I shall follow the debate very closely in Committee and contribute where I think it useful and appropriate, but I shall do so from a different position. The other speech was that of the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock. He explained to me as no one has before exactly what the treaty entails and why it does not present the danger that I and many others felt it did. I wish that he was able to speak to the nation in the same vein. Another speech which I admired was that of my noble friend Lady Williams of Crosby. As she pointed out, one of the problems is that the British public have never really understood what Europe is about. Why should they? People live busy lives, often obsessed with a shortage of money and their work, and things have not been simple to understand. I sat next to Christopher Bland once at a lunch when he was in charge of the BBC; he was talking to parliamentarians at that time. I said, ““As a public service broadcaster, surely you will now be able to give to the British public a series of debates that will allow them to understand more than just the economic interests of our country but the political and social interests or concerns which we may have in the developments in Europe, because it is a social, political and economic community””. He assured me that that was indeed his plan and that he intended to go about it fairly promptly. It never happened. I learnt that only today from someone who shall remain nameless. He said that it was quite simple. The BBC certainly planned to do it but, such was the difficulty of balance—a problem for the BBC, with the sword of Damocles hanging above it—that it was too much. The BBC felt there would be so much difficulty in balancing between the Eurosceptics and the Europhiles that it was best to drop it. That is one of the reasons why the nation is in the current position and why it is not an appropriate country to have a vote before it in a referendum anyway. My noble friend's speech was telling, as one would expect from her. I found many of the points she made reassuring. The fourth speech was that of my noble friend Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank. He is one of the reasons why I am on these Benches, where I am surrounded by people with moderate views which they express with great experience and great common sense. I am not making any gibes here at my noble friend the leader of my party. He made a magnificent speech but unfortunately he was provoked, as I would have been; like me, he is sometimes of a fiery temper. But it was unfortunate because the debate needed to be put on an even keel, as indeed it has been. It has been a magnificent debate and I shall be closely following all the proceedings all the way through. I have never been a Eurosceptic. I have been called from time to time ““unsound”” on Europe. Perhaps people will be able to tell me what ““unsound”” means in that context. I remember speaking at an eve-of-poll address at the election before last. The Liberal Democrat candidate said to me politely, ““We’re looking forward to your speech. It is unlikely that anybody will say anything about Europe, but we understand that you are a little bit unsound on Europe. I have got two councillors. In the unlikely event you should have a question on Europe, they will deal with it, so if you’d kindly step aside””. I made my speech. The first person to stand up was a woman in the front row, who said, ““What is the party going to do about Europe?”” Being an agreeable sort of chap, I gave way to the two councillors. They never looked at the woman who asked the question; they had a friendly conversation between themselves on the platform about the merits of European cars and the position of the British motor car industry, and what happened at Dunkirk in 1940. After that, I had to say to the candidate, ““I would have been like Jacques Delors compared to your councillors””. So I will not take it from anybody that I am a Eurosceptic. I do not expect be invited by the Liberal Democrats to speak about Europe at any local meetings. In any case, I am getting too long in the tooth to make those journeys into the deep rural parts of Britain. On a serious note, there are things about which we should be concerned. In my original speech, which I tore up—I made a few notes in the Royal Gallery—I had intended to deal with an area which still concerns me slightly, which is the legal personality of Europe. However, I am told that my fears on that can be allayed and that it has a legal personality, but that it is, as it were, being codified. It is not being as dangerously codified as in the original constitution, which stated that the legal personality would be superior to that of the member nations; the treaty says just that there is a legal personality. It is worrying matter, and I hope that we will deal with it during your Lordships’ debates. I hope that it will be dealt with so satisfactorily that I will not be drawn again towards the temptation to go with those voting for a referendum. The net result of a referendum would not be to the advantage of anybody. The decision to put a commitment to a referendum into the manifestos of the three major parties was cynical opportunism of the worst kind and the worst public relations in the body politic that I have known.