Climate Change Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to my noble friend for being so constructive in his response and to my noble friend Lord Puttnam for his remarks. One point that was made en passant was new to me: in 2009 there will be what I shall describe as the financial carbon budgets side by side with the quantitative carbon budgets. That is certainly a step forward. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Stern, that we can grow the GDP. What concerns me is not the theory that we can but that, to use a variation on the word ““revolution””, there could be a revolt. People will find that they are being hit by taxes to choke off demand. We need to have more discussion at some level or other about whether the argument made by Oxford Economics, which was the economic basis of some of the review’s analysis, is true, as I am saying. The argument is that the 30 per cent reduction from trend over the next 20 years will be from choking off demand through price. That is where ballpark numbers are quite important; my guess is that taxation will be responsible for at least half of that. This is the sort of thing we need to get nearer to, and I do not think this is the climate change committee’s area of expertise. I know that hypothecation is unfashionable. When I did my economics at Cambridge many years ago I did a special paper on public finance, and I remember all the arguments that were stacked up to say, ““It is a very bad thing!””. As we have seen with the congestion charge and the £50 notes going to buses or something, the issue is about winning hearts and minds. It is a question not just of economic theory but of how you get people to see that this is where their money is going and that is what it is being spent on. This is a revolution in terms of a huge change of economic structure. I have not even mentioned anything about employment structure and workers’ representation, but all of those things are affected. I shall not push this further today, naturally, but something like a carbon tax forum—I do not mind what we call it—is an idea whose time has come now. It will be overdue when it is finally introduced because those people in Burton-on-Trent will not know what has hit them. Helping them understand it is a job that, at present, the Treasury is not supremely good at. I look forward to these issues being further debated in the Labour Party and all the other political parties. Before the Bill gets to the House of Commons, the Government may wish to reflect on whether they can clarify what my noble friend asserted was going to happen—what the Government will and will not do. I think he said half an hour ago on a different amendment that he thought there might be one or two amendments to the Bill in the next 50 years. I hope he has clearance in Whitehall for saying that; I would not like anything bad to happen to him. Anyway, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 50 [Programme for adaptation to climate change: Northern Ireland]: