Climate Change Bill [HL]

When I look back on this Committee stage I will probably say that this debate was one of the shortest and yet one of the most interesting. I have a speech that would more or less squash it all but I am still of the view that I should take it away from the Committee in order to tie it in with what was said last week. I will essentially be negative, and I will explain some of the reasons for that, but on the other hand we have just had contributions that have shown the practicalities. We have had the example of apples, though I doubt that the noble Earl was on about the apple sector. It might be the fruit-growing sector, or the farming sector as a whole. My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours then gave the residential sector as an example. But then we had a local government issue, with residential issues mixed up with land. It is a question of looking at sectors. But then my noble friend Lord Woolmer referred to the national plan of the 1960s and George Brown. I said to my ministerial colleague on the Front Bench that, as I have now discovered, ““Not all members of the Government have heard of George Brown, so mentioning him is probably not a good idea””. I also expected my noble friend Lord Woolmer to mention the No. 7 tractor plant and the problem of picking winners. The noble Lord, Lord Taylor, in his second contribution, then made the distinction that, contrary to the point about the demise of the national plan, here we have almost a consensus in principle for industry, government and business actually to do something to make it work, but not to have it imposed top-down by telling individual companies and sectors what to do. That is the important point coming out of the debate. Obviously, we want to make sure that each budget and the 2050 target are met. We can agree that it does not matter where in the economy the reductions come from. We must be flexible about this. Flexibility is the key, along with the principle of making sure that we achieve the targets. There is a number of problems with the idea of sectoral targets, but it depends on how you look at the sectors. There is no doubt that this is where the national plan of the 1960s would have led, and did lead, to inefficient policy making. If you are rigid with your plan and your target, you get a problem. I was given an example in my notes. Evidence might come forward—and it is highly likely to come forward today—of a new technology that turns out to be the most cost-effective means of reducing emissions, but we might be tied to meeting the targets through other sectors. That way you would ossify the technology and the chances of putting it into practice. I am not knocking sectoral targets, but we must be flexible about this. As I said on Second Reading, operation of this kind of legislation will unquestionably lead to the creation of new businesses, but not all of them will succeed. We have to give them the flexibility to work out what is best. The emissions trading scheme is a good example of a policy that covers multiple sectors. One can broadly divide the economy into no more than five or six sectors, but we are looking at something below that. In a way, this comes down to letting the climate change committee take this principle, and maybe we will find a different way on Report of looking at the need for some kind of way forward. It should not be prescriptive, stop technology or wreck the putting into practice of new and good ideas, but it should assist those in different sectors who feel that they want to make a contribution. The noble Earl made a good point. I am not saying that he gave this example, but he identified the fact that the large retailers dominate our food economy. We have asked them on a range of issues concerning the food chain to ensure through their suppliers, as part of their job, that workers are not exploited, that the gangmasters legislation is operated fairly and that the minimum wage is paid. It is the retailers’ job to make sure that the provenance of their products is okay—for example, by preventing the restamping of non free-range eggs as free-range. They can ensure that through each supplier in the chain. It is no different in the case of those who want to be associated with cutting emissions; the same can be done with suppliers, but you would not want to be prescriptive by ordering the sector to cut emissions. The work goes across many sectors. I shall take some advice on this. If there are any targets knocking around Whitehall—I suspect that we will have some figures in the department or in the Treasury, although I do not know—they are not being operated and they would not be prescriptive in that sense. We must be flexible, but we need people to be assured that the legislation has clarity and that we can take it forward. I have already agreed to look at other parts of the Bill so that we can find ways to demonstrate that the Government as a whole are committed to the issue. We do not think that setting emission reduction targets for each government department—to pick on Amendment No. 32—is the way but we will certainly consider that alongside the proposals we discussed last week. I do not think that anybody has used the word rigid about sectoral targets, but by implication they need to be flexible. We need to look at what we mean by a sector because that is not adequately explained. We need to make sure that the Committee on Climate Change has maximum flexibility in this with the good will and willingness of industry and competition and new technologies so that a door is not closed because some sector has been given a target that ends up knocking out an opportunity for new technology so that someone will not take the risk of investment. We would not want that to happen. If we can find a solution along those lines, we will have served the scrutiny of this Bill extremely well in exactly 30 minutes.