Local Transport Bill [HL]

In speaking in favour of this clause remaining in the Bill, I declare an interest as the Assembly Member for Dwyfor Meirionnydd, a beautiful area consisting of a national park and an area of outstanding natural beauty. But I know of no proposals to instigate road pricing there. I was however relieved to hear the noble Lord say that the Conservatives were not opposed to devolution per se, which I am sure will be a great relief to his Conservative friends in Cardiff Bay. But I have to warn him that his arguments at Second Reading—I apologise for not being able to attend—can be seen as constitutionally difficult, if not negative. The noble Lord has carefully set out how the Assembly and Welsh Ministers achieve powers under the Government of Wales Act 2006. As we have heard, there are two routes: that is, the route of the proposed order which, when it comes to Parliament, is a draft order, the so-called legislative competence order, and the route of framework powers. There is nothing new in establishing devolution by framework powers. What is different here is that we are going into a new field where the National Assembly has powers of legislation through measures, but the route—whether it is the route of the order in council or the route of the framework power—ends up in the same way. It produces measures. I profoundly disagree with the noble Lord that it is somehow appropriate for this House to take a view on what kind of measures should be put forward by Welsh Ministers, individual Members or committees of the National Assembly. The issue for this House, whether we are talking about proposed orders or framework powers, is whether these proposals to legislate are within—to quote the distinguished Constitution Committee in its recent second report of the Session 2007-08 on the scrutiny of Welsh legislative competence orders—the spirit and letter of the Government of Wales Act 2006, the constitution of Wales, as most recently amended by this House. To argue that the Welsh Ministers and the Government in Cardiff should not have powers of road pricing, or the potential to produce measures for road pricing, is to argue that a very important tool in the armoury of environmental management of traffic congestion as part of the overall transport planning of Welsh Ministers should not be available to them. There is a further argument. There will be a full opportunity for the noble Lord’s Conservative colleagues to scrutinise any measures that will emerge as a result of these framework powers were they to be transferred. I would encourage them to do that when the time comes, but it is there that that should happen. The measures and the results of the transfer of framework powers are for the National Assembly Members, the Ministers or individual Members to propose, and for those who are opposed, to argue. That scrutiny happens there. The noble Lord says that there is insufficient scrutiny of the transfer of framework powers, but there is scrutiny in three Assemblies—in the two Houses of Parliament and in the National Assembly—for every one of those things. There is scrutiny of the framework powers as they are developed in UK legislation, and there is scrutiny of the measures in detail when they appear in that form in Cardiff. Therefore, this is not a transfer of competence by default. It is certainly not a taxation power; it is an environmental management power. The idea that tourists to Wales would become indirect taxation payers through the imposition of a heavy congestion charge is totally to confuse the issue. I would advise the noble Lord to consult his colleagues in Cardiff Bay more carefully before Report.