Local Transport Bill [HL]

My noble friend said that he will respond to the questions that he has not covered in his response—there may be one or two. I will obviously look forward to receiving those responses. There is a fundamental disagreement between us. I think that the processes will put people off the Approvals Board and the Transport Tribunal; clearly my noble friend does not. I think that he referred to the need to meet the requirements of the European Convention on Human Rights. Have the Government had legal advice that it is only by including the provision for an Approvals Board and a Transport Tribunal, as well as the right—which obviously anyone has—to go to court if he is aggrieved, that the position in respect of the European Convention on Human Rights can be covered? My argument has been that we do not need the processes of the Approvals Board and the Transport Tribunal and that if a party feels aggrieved by a decision by the local authority—either the decision, the way in which the local authority has carried out its consultation, whether it has listened to responses, whether it has met the criteria laid down in the guidance or whether a party feels that it has been effectively put out of business either completely or in part by the decision of the local transport authority—it has the right to go to court. My point is: is my noble friend saying that, bearing in mind that parties would have as of right a facility to pursue the matter through the court, the Government's legal advice is that that would not be sufficient to meet the requirements of the European Convention on Human Rights? It would be very helpful if my noble friend could reply in very specific terms on that issue. I will obviously read Hansard carefully concerning what my noble friend said about how long it will take a scheme to go through the process. I am sure that he will correct me if I am wrong, but I think that he said that a non-controversial scheme might take 15 months, although he had said that it would take only six weeks at the Approvals Board and subsequently three months at the Transport Tribunal—at least, that is what I have written down. When he went on to speak by inference about a controversial scheme—one that is being contested—I am afraid that I got a bit lost, because I sensed that on top of the 15 months, we were getting a 10-month period thrown in, and then a three-month period, and I was not quite sure what we were ending up with as the total time that it might take. My contention was that the quality contracts will be strongly opposed, so that unless the decision by the Approvals Board and the Transport Tribunal goes the way of bus operators—I say this only because I know that they are very much against the arrangements that we have in London—they will pursue it as far as they can, as is their right. If it is not clear in Hansard, I hope that my noble friend will spell out what he thinks will could be the maximum period for a case that is contested right down the line. I believe that my noble friend also said—once again, I may have misheard him and, if I have, I apologise—that you could end up in the Court of Appeal only on a point of law. Is my noble friend saying that it will not be possible to go to the Court of Appeal and, under the pretext that it is under a point of law, reopen the whole proceedings and effectively have a rerun of what was heard before either the Approvals Board or the Transport Tribunal? In other words, will that be allowed only on a very narrow point of law? It would be very helpful if we could get on record whether that is what my noble friend is saying. My noble friend Lord Snape made a point about the cost of the arrangements in London. That point is often made in criticism of the franchising arrangements in London. My answer to that is that a political decision to spend X amount of money on the provision of bus services is not a matter for bus operators, it is a matter for local authorities. They should be making those decisions. If they get them wrong and have to increase their local taxes because the amount of money that they get from the Government is not sufficient to cover what they want to do, or if they have to make cuts elsewhere to provide the money, they are accountable to the electorate for that decision. That is as it should be: an elected body should make the decision on how much should or should not be spent on the provision of bus services and is accountable at the ballot box for that decision. That is the purpose of the amendments.