Terrorism and Crime (EUC Report)

My Lords, I thank Michael Collon and Anneliese Baldaccini, the ever helpful amanuenses of Sub-Committee F, for their help in preparing these reports. I have not had the opportunity to enjoy the chairmanship of that committee by the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, but I have enjoyed the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Wright of Richmond, and now the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, not quite of Richmond. I can say that they are both wonderful rapporteurs and raconteurs. They have both, on behalf of the committee, explained the issues before us in the case of PNR and Prüm, and illustrated them well from their own experiences. We are grateful for that. I will not repeat the exegeses that have been presented, most notably by the noble Lord, Lord Wright, as the former chairman, of Prüm and PNR. In turning to the Prüm treaty, I ask my noble friend why we so hastily agreed to these matters. Indeed, it seemed that we were bounced into agreeing to Prüm when there was no proper consultation, impact assessment or costing of what it might mean for us and other member states. We resisted the German presidency ganging up, as it were, with others to present a fait accompli to us all at the end of the story. In many ways I accept Prüm and would like to know why the British Government have been so reluctant to accept the treaty, lock, stock and barrel. I understand that this was under very serious consideration for 12 months and I invite my noble friend to say a few more words about why, in the end, we did not take the plunge. With respect to passenger name records, there is concern that we have so readily capitulated to the Americans in the area of disclosure of personal data. My particular concern is not only that the agreement is so one-sided, but that another element of this was the American demand that any data received under these institutions should be capable of being farmed out to any institution within the United States that the Americans so choose. Indeed, they told us that this is what they were going to do. That really is reprehensible, and I wonder whether we could have exercised our influence under the special relationship to advise them that this was quite unacceptable. Before coming into this debate today, I had the pleasure of hosting Charlie McCreevy, European Commissioner for the Internal Market and Services, who talked about financial services issues and the regulatory framework that we are building up in the European Union and with the USA. It did not surprise me that first question posed to the commissioner was why the USA and the European Union cannot trust each other more on these issues. Again, I invite the Minister to think about the relationship that we have had with the USA over so many years, which has been so fruitful and is often called the ““special relationship””. The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, made some very interesting comments about both of these issues. I am a little more uncertain about the question of profiling. We require a definition of what profiling is done, which is advantageous, right and proper for the defence of the people of the United Kingdom and the European Union, and what profiling oversteps the limits? I am very interested to hear my noble friend’s views on what is legitimate or illegitimate profiling. Last week, I, too, was with the noble Lord, Lord Jopling, in Brussels. The gathering together of the appropriate committees of national parliaments with our friends and colleagues in the European Parliament is very worth while. On this occasion, we discussed justice, freedom and security matters. As the noble Lord said, the third session, which he addressed in his inimitable way, concentrated on and gave opportunities for us to discuss the Prüm treaty and the PNR reports, which I understand are so valued in Brussels by our colleagues. It would be true to say that the tenor of the debate as it developed was one of trying to find a balance between personal data and the personal safety of the citizen. I do not think that the issue was resolved, but it was well aired, to the benefit of all. I shall conclude with further information from that session in Brussels. Jonathan Faull, the director-general of the directorate concerned with justice, freedom and security, reported on the success of the European arrest warrant. Noble Lords may recall that it was the subject of high controversy in this country. He told us that the 7,000 arrests made in the 12 months since it came into practice is double the number of arrests of persons who were examined for nefarious activities of one kind or another relating to terror. That is an example of the member states of the European Union acting together and swapping information, thus easing our ability to bring to justice those who need to be brought to justice. I say that because I return in particular to the Prüm treaty. Sometimes there is a dislocation between the ambitions of our Government to alert us and the rest of the European Union to the very real threats of terror that beset us in the modern world and our reluctance from time to time to engage more closely with our European Union colleagues to put into practice those measures which would aid and abet us in that task. I have long thought that I should add my enthusiastic support for Labour Governments to my record in the hobbies section of Dod’s. It is a hobby that I have practised over many years. I invite my noble friend to say a little more on the very real opportunities that from time to time we neglect, particularly these two very difficult subjects.