Licensing Act 2003: Section 182 Guidance

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. It is almost as though his speech were written by several different hands. It is a very contrasting speech. On the one hand, I have engaged in an onslaught against the Act. I have exaggerated and used anecdotes and supposition, yet almost the entirety of my speech was based on what I thought was a perfectly sensible Live Music Forum report which I toned down. I did not, in fact, accept all of the propositions put forward by the Live Music Forum. Therefore, it seems strange that the Minister says that he will take seriously everything in the Live Music Forum recommendations, yet he already seems to have rubbished half my arguments. I live in hope yet that the DCMS will take the Live Music Forum report seriously, but I suggest that he has lifted his skirt slightly too high in the course of this debate. The Minister has obviously come back from the Recess in great, fighting form. He started engaging in a debate with the noble Lord, Lord Howard, about binge drinking, which was not the subject of my Motion. We supported the Licensing Act at the time and I, too, hope that we can find a more civilised way of drinking in this country. I regret that we have not yet found it. I do not personally believe that the Act has contributed towards a further lack of civilisation. I believe that we are dealing with deep cultural issues. That is why I did not treat alcohol as part of my Motion. I enjoy a knockabout as much as anyone. I know that the Minister has led a rather sheltered life, but my speech was not a savage onslaught on the Act and it certainly was not a savage onslaught on local authorities. Members of my party and local councillors read Hansard along with the best of them. I have taken the trouble to meet local authority representatives to talk to them about a de minimis exemption which could be introduced under the Act. They have been extremely constructive. I have had some very positive conversations with them. I took pains in my speech to say that the Live Music Forum did not criticise local authorities in general. Indeed, I mentioned a particular local authority that I thought was worthy of praise. However, in some cases over-bureaucracy has taken place and some local authorities have been over-zealous in their interpretation of the Act, which was why I mentioned local authorities. If I can discern what the Minister said correctly, he spotted that I am after the Act and not the guidance. I mentioned specifically the point that he made also about paragraph 26; namely, that positive representations are being encouraged as well. There are other very positive aspects of the guidance as well. When we talk about things such as review of the Act, it is the last refuge of a Minister to ask the Opposition to define a particular term. Of course the definition of incidental music is difficult, but asking us to define it when the Minister has all the resources of the DCMS at his disposal, not to mention Treasury counsel and any number of other government departments, such as the Home Office, seems to be a little bit cheeky in the circumstances. I mentioned some of the issues that need to be resolved when defining incidental music. I went so far as to talk about the situation in a shopping centre. There are other circumstances—for instance, in football grounds and so on—where there is incidental live music. But I was suggesting that those issues are properly debated as part of a review of the Act. Sadly, the Minister did not say that he would institute a review. He made some sympathetic noises about some aspects of the Act as they affected live music. The most telling point that the Minister made, despite defending the Act as providing greater flexibility and his rather negative statement that it had not had a devastating negative effect on live music, was an Aunt Sally. I certainly never raised the fact that the Act had had a devastating effect. I quoted the Live Music Forum as saying that it had had a broadly neutral effect. The Minister’s latest statement, no doubt written by a different hand, which said that there had been no significant benefits, is just about right. It was fair for the Minister to say that the Government had higher hopes on the passing of the Act. I take comfort from those statements, unlike some of the others. He also stated that the Act was not perfect. It must have taken a great deal of writing to say that. Good heavens: what an admission. Other things still have to take place. I hope that the BRMB survey will take place shortly. I take comfort also from the Minister’s statement that the Government want to see live music flourishing. There clearly needs to be a balance. I am not suddenly suggesting that we have a de minimis exemption for venues of 500 people and for amplified music in those circumstances. It would be foolish of me to suggest that. But we need to let off the brake somewhat. We need to have a more sensible de minimis. I am sure that the BRMB survey will demonstrate that the two-in-the-bar rule has had problems. I do not think that it is correct to say, as the Minister did, that there were not many instances where adverse effects have been found from the Act. He seemed to contract himself. This has been a useful way of flushing out the Minister and of finding out the Government’s attitude towards live music and whether they are sympathetic to some re-looking at the Act. I have elicited some daylight during the course of the debate which did not constitute any form of onslaught. The Minister will have to get used to more bludgeoning of a different variety in the course of the next few weeks and months. No doubt he is rather tender after coming straight back from the Recess. I am grateful for the Minister’s words today. I hope that, along with other bodies and organisations, those who constituted the Live Music Forum can continue to take part in the debate, despite the fact that I and many others were dismayed to see that it was disbanded immediately after its report. In these circumstances, I beg leave to withdraw my Motion. Motion, by leave, withdrawn.