House of Lords Bill [HL]

Well, my Lords, I thought I should say it just the same. My right honourable friend yesterday said in another place that we would see what the Lords had to say about the Bill, as we will. He said also that it has to be clear that such a reform cannot be an alternative to the major reform to which that House is now committed. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, made that point very well. I say at once to the noble Baroness, Lady Shephard, my noble friend Lord MacKenzie and my noble and learned friend Lord Morris of Aberavon that we do not seek to belittle this Bill. We will follow its process with considerable care. I echo in a sense the noble Lord, Lord Strathclyde, in saying that I suspect that if this Bill, or a similar Bill next Session, completed its passage in the other place, its shape might be different from how it now appears. Noble Lords need to consider that matter carefully. The context in which we debate the noble Lord’s Bill today has to take us to the Government’s Green Paper on the governance of Britain, which committed the Government to enacting the will of the other place, which, as your Lordships will recall, voted for an 80 per cent or a 100 per cent elected second Chamber. The noble Lord, Lord McNally, described it as the ““political Rubicon””. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Brooke, said that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I know that it has been suggested that in the past, and the Government have themselves proposed, that a gradual approach to Lords reform might be the best way forward. However, life has moved on. We have now had a very clear steer from the elected Chamber of this Parliament; namely, that it thought that the right answer to Lords reform was for the House to be substantially or wholly elected. My right honourable friend Prime Minister has made it clear that the Government will respect that view by saying that we should proceed in line with the wishes of that House. I say to noble Lords opposite that both the other parties are committed by their manifestos to seeking a substantially elected House of Lords. The Conservative Party manifesto of 2005 stated: "““We will seek cross-party consensus for a substantially elected House of Lords””." The party of the noble Lord, Lord McNally, stated that it wished to plan for, "““a predominantly elected second chamber””." I know that there are concerns about the timing. The reason for the year 2014 having been mentioned goes back to the White Paper of February this year, which gave a preference for the European elections as being the time when elections to a second Chamber would take place. Much further discussion must be had before we can be certain that 2014 is the date. I know that my noble friend Lord Tomlinson is impatient for change, as he said today. On that basis, noble Lords are saying that it is better to take the step in the Bill of the noble Lord, Lord Steel, as an interim measure before major reform takes place. However, we have the prospect of agreement between the parties on the way forward. Many noble Lords here are connoisseurs of the history of reform of your Lordships’ House. Surely the prospect of that party agreement, in the mechanism that we have made clear to your Lordships’ House, is how we will take it forward. Surely that suggests that we must put our efforts into completing Lords reform and ensuring that it takes place as part of a comprehensive approach. That is why—