Finance Bill

My Lords, that is to presume that, if such individuals then made up their minds that living in London was no longer an option that they wanted to exercise, there would be a straight gain for the Exchequer. All I would say is that I do not think that it is as cut and dried as he suggests. However, we shall continue with that argument later. My noble friend Lord Sheldon said that the value of the committee lay in the strength of its bipartisan approach to these matters. However, I have to say that in certain representations made in this debate I am not convinced that bipartisanship has been the order of the day. The noble Lord, Lord Wakeham, set a magnificent example, but I am not sure that he has been totally successful in influencing the overall debate. Certainly the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, has engaged in this debate in similar terms to those that he used so ably when he was in another place. Of course the Government take the views of this House on the Finance Bill seriously. The Government are also aware of the ability of the Economic Affairs Sub-Committee to produce a report, which is a great advantage to us. However, we should not live in the land of delusion, which I think has attended some contributions to the debate. Some noble Lords have suggested that it will not be long before the House matches the Commons in its responsibilities for the Finance Bill. Some disparaging remarks were made about the conduct of the other place. If it is said about the other end of the building that people there over-engage in politics, it must be observed that the Budget and Budget decisions are made at the highest level of politics and of course are prioritised by all Oppositions. If the fault lies anywhere at this time, it lies on the Conservative Benches, but it is the same fault that we enjoyed when we were in opposition. However, this House is a revising Chamber and its responsibility for finance is bound to be more limited, so I do not think that it is suitable for us to suggest that we should take an equal position with the other place regarding this Bill. What we can do is bring informed comments and considered thoughts to the matter, and the debate has strongly reflected that. I shall come on to the more general points made by the noble Lord, Lord Northbrook, in a moment, but I say to him that we do not think that the issue of managed service companies is about structural change; it is one of compliance and how we might succeed in getting the yield to which the Exchequer is entitled, rather than anything more fundamental, as the noble Lord suggested. I am afraid that I have the most negative response for the noble Lord, Lord Newby, to his most straightforward question, and I apologise to the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for the same response. They asked me to confirm that 17 October would be the date of the pre-Budget review. At the moment I am unable to confirm that. It will not have escaped the attention of noble Lords that there have been one or two minor transitions in the Government in recent weeks, which may occasion a slight change in the dates. I apologise to the noble Lord and the noble Baroness for not being able to assure them on that point. On the overall position as presented, the noble Lord, Lord Newby, and to a more moderate degree the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, identified failures of the Government as represented in this Finance Bill and in the way in which we have conducted the economy over the past few years. I have to say that the House needs to recognise the confidence with which the Government approach these issues. I heard the noble Baroness bemoan the fact that interest rates are rising. Interest rates have risen to 5.75 per cent at the present time. That must be measured against the record of the previous Administration, which never managed to get them down into single figures. That is the difference.