Pensions Bill

My Lords, I hesitate to follow the remarks of my noble friend Lord Fowler about the Treasury because as a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury I thought that he might have been getting at me. I say straightaway that I am on his side in this argument, as, indeed, is the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull. I was not able to attend the debate on 4 June, but I read Hansard very carefully. I found the noble Baroness’s arguments compelling and I agree with the points that were made this afternoon. I am just going to make one point about the costs. I appreciate this is a different amendment from that of 4 June. I am not sure how different, because I have not been able to follow the complexities. I noticed that the Minister on 4 June rested a lot of his argument on costs. I was astonished to read what he said about costs. He said it was difficult to estimate them exactly and he was making certain assumptions. Nevertheless, he said that the costs, which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, described as modest, would provide net benefits in 2007, 2008 and 2009 of £1 million, £0.5 million and £0.2 million respectively. He went on to say that thereafter there would be costs of the order of £0.8 billion, £0.9 billion through to £0.8 billion in 2030. I do not know to what years these billions applied—that was all he said. I thought when I first read it that it must have been a misprint. For the Minister to bring these costs forward, very baldly, at the last minute, and expect to frighten us off is just not good enough. That is what I felt he was trying to do. In addition to looking at the net costs—offsetting the means tests and benefits that would otherwise be incurred—he must give us an accurate breakdown of how he reaches that figure if he is to convince us, because I find it inexplicable. My last point is that between 1997 and 2001, because of the computer mistake, the Government were prepared to introduce a bigger system, when presumably costs did not enter into it. If the Minister is going to rest his argument on costs, he must be an awful lot more convincing than he was last time.