Offender Management Bill

My Lords, I certainly understand the concern expressed by my noble friend Lord Judd and the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham; I am pleased that the noble Lord referred to the extensive debate that we had on the last occasion. He would then have read my Written Ministerial Statement on 8 May, in which I set out the actions we are taking in relation to offenders aged 18 to 24, both in custody and in the community. I think that there is general acceptance that that is probably the right bracket for us to look at, not least because of the differing rates of maturity and the difficulties that young people, who become young adults, face in that situation. It is important for us to look at the consequences of removing the power to place such people in prison. They would be far-reaching and unacceptable. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, understands those consequences, and that he very much wants us to have a workable system. At the moment, I do not think that this is workable. I entirely agree that we need to give proper consideration to the needs of young adults; that is obviously what lay behind my Statement on 8 May. However, just as there is not much difference between a 17 year-old and an 18 year-old—as the noble Baroness, Lady Linklater, who is not in her place, said in Committee—there is little to separate the 20 year-old from the 21 year-old. It is of course necessary to have thresholds distinguishing ““children and young people”” from ““young adults”” and ““young adults”” from ““adults””. The points at which we draw those lines are a matter of judgment and may be subject to change. We should not regard the age of 21 as a perpetually fixed point. The measures that I announced on 8 May cover 18 to 24 year-olds, so it would be odd if I were now to say that under-21s should never come into contact with anyone aged 21, 22, 23 or 24. That would put in tension and conflict the concept that we have just agreed—that that bracket is sensible for us to look at. Of course we have to take steps to safeguard vulnerable young adults but the amendment, if enacted, would do nothing to achieve that. It would simply make the whole system unworkable. That is because, in a technical sense, all young people over 17 who are remanded to custody are ““in prison””, though in reality they are likely to be in part of a young offender institution that has been formally designated as a prison for the purposes of the law. While the House shares the noble Lord’s concern for the welfare of young adults in prison, I am sure that it would not wish to add to existing operational difficulties. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, raises an interesting suggestion as to whether there could be some form of ministerial oversight. I do not have the numbers at my fingertips at the moment, but I think that they might make that unworkable. However, I shall raise that with the Ministry of Justice. I recall that I would often ask for certain categories of cases to be referred to me, so that I had an overview of what had happened. It was not necessarily a case-by-case basis, but a report on how many and when, so that I could get a flavour. Maybe that could be in the contemplation. At the moment, the noble Lord’s suggestion does not simpliciter seem workable, but maybe we could look at something from a practical point of view that might assist, to hone in and make sure that the eye is kept on this ball. I would be happy to convey that to the Ministry of Justice.