EU: UK Membership

My Lords, I pay full tribute to the noble Lord, Lord McNally, for giving the House a chance to debate this very important issue. The Government welcome the long-term contribution that he continues to make on these debates. Parliamentary debate and scrutiny on all EU issues is essential if we are to ensure that Europe continues to reform and to deliver for its citizens, and that Britain remains fully engaged with the EU. I thank all noble Lords—not only those who have taken part in the debate, but others such as the noble Lord, Lord Grenfell, who was mentioned—who contribute so much on other occasions. For a while I thought that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Howe of Aberavon, was right and that the propositions that were being discussed were shared, at least sometimes, among the major parties. Having heard the conclusion from the Front Bench opposite, I am not certain that he is entirely right, although I wish he were. I am certainly with him on the case for an amending treaty—the Prime Minister has committed himself to that—reflecting the demands and the practicalities that enlargement has caused. The noble Lord, Lord Williamson, focused on just such sensible content. He advised that we should avoid unnecessary symbolism. I think that was echoed by the noble Lord, Lord Tugendhat, and I fully agree with it. The points made about the high representative, the External Affairs Commissioner, the rotating chair and presidency and the difficulties those cause are practical issues which should be grasped and dealt with. Having to make a clean start every six months on an issue such as how we deal with Somalia is scarcely ever likely to get us to the right point; it does not help. We will have far less difficulty with the Charter of Fundamental Rights, as it brings together existing rights but not with the force of law. In our view it should not extend EU competence but I do not intend to speculate on what may be proposed at the Council meeting. As the noble Lord, Lord Roper, said, on that, or indeed other matters, we shall see what flows from the discussion. That will tell us the character of the national decision which we will have to make. It will either be something fundamental that meets the requirements honourably put into our manifesto, or it will be very different and will draw together things which do not require that kind of decision. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, that there is no smuggling in of anything here. The plain fact remains that if it was a matter of a fundamental change and a constitution which was fundamental in any of those senses, it would be put to the British people, as we said. My noble friend Lord Lea made important points about the referendum process and the campaign. I say to him and to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, that campaigning is very important but sometimes it is none too easy in these areas. There is not much about Europe which is entirely and immediately intelligible. Sometimes such obscure language is used that it is not that easy for anybody to penetrate it. I was intrigued by the injunction of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, that the Government had allowed the media to spin this country’s interests. I do not know what could be done in terms of permitting or restricting the media in the way that they describe Europe, but if he has any good suggestions I am entirely up for hearing them. I have no doubt that they will be very pragmatic. I assure the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard, that we shall not opt out of any part of the discussion, nor shall we try to change the agenda. Obviously, we want a practical debate within this agenda, which was also one of his demands. This is the 50th anniversary year of the signature of the treaties of Rome. We should reflect and celebrate the achievements of the EU over the past half century. I share that sentiment with the noble Lord, Lord McNally. I was intrigued by recent debates—I know that he and I share a view about this—in which it was said that, had people looked at the EU at the beginning in other than purely economic terms, we would never be where we are. But we did look at it in other than economic terms. I refer to the 1971 White Paper that the Conservatives helpfully put before the peopleof the United Kingdom to set out what was involved in the development of Europe. Paragraph 7 stated that our country would be more secure, our ability to maintain peace and promote development in the world greater, our economy stronger and our industries and people more prosperous if we joined the European Communities than if we remained outside them. Reference has been made to the ever closer union among European peoples in the preamble in Article 2. Paragraph 24 stated that common policies and common action were needed in matters of foreign policy. I do not think that anybody can say that the thing was not properly discussed. For those reasons I welcome the fact that the noble Lord, Lord Howell of Guildford, said that he had been close to this project for a very long time. It must fill his heart with joy to see this side of the House reformed in that regard. It was a journey that the Labour Party was bound to have to make and I am very pleased that it has done so. His speech, finally, was so hedged with difficulties that it is very hard to see what we can or should do in any of the circumstances that will face us—we should be in but we should not be entangled; we should not be out but we should make friends in a variable geometry way. I just wonder whether those friends will not look at us and say, ““You look pretty inconsistent to me””. I do not think, with great respect, that that is the way in which we will make progress. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Pearson, that I replied to last Friday’s debate last Friday, and I do not think that the House will be pleased to hear a significant repetition of what was said. This House, in my view, relies on the knowledge, experience and service that people bring to it when they come to this House; and it is perhaps a touch spiteful, if I may say so, to suggest that people say what they say because they have some obligation as a result of their pension. We will always put these issues—as we do today—to Parliament. Negotiations may, at key moments, be behind closed doors. I can only say to the noble Lord, having spent a great many years in trade union negotiations and commercial negotiations, that I rarely did the whole of them in public before we got some way into the process. That may be an inconvenient truth about negotiating, but it is a truth that everyone who seriously does it will recognise.