Offender Management Bill

I am sure that my noble friends Lady Gibson and Lady Turner will be aware that the issue covered by their amendment was discussed at length in Committee in another place. However, I am happy to repeat the assurances that were given then on the subject and to reinforce the messages that I am confident were delivered by my colleagues in another place. Paragraphs 7 and 8 of Schedule 1 deal with the arrangements for trusts employing staff. Paragraph 7 states that the terms of employment are for the trust to determine. Paragraph 8 allows, but does not require, the Secretary of State to approve the terms of employment determined by trusts. Amendment No. 65 would have the effect of restricting that flexibility—and it is flexibility—and would require the Secretary of State to determine terms of employment. However, it should be clearly understood—I restate it—that we have no plans to change the current arrangements whereby pay and terms and conditions for probation staff are negotiated on a national basis through a national framework and national machinery. It is not currently either practical or appropriate for probation trusts to set their own terms and conditions. We envisage that that will remain the case for the foreseeable future. We are, however, engaged in a process of reform, and that will not be completed overnight. The provisions under discussion have rightly been designed to leave us with an element of flexibility to respond to future local circumstances which by their very nature we cannot anticipate in every regard. Without a convincing reason, it does not make sense, as the amendment proposes, to restrict in primary legislation the ability to react to unforeseen circumstances which require this important element of flexibility—circumstances which the noble Baroness could not anticipate or foresee—or the ability to recognise the localism of the service. It is not our intention to undermine in any way the national negotiation process or machinery or the way in which they work. We agree that some certainty is needed and that it makes good sense to negotiate on a national basis, but we do not want to produce an ironclad straitjacket for the service as the amendment suggests. I doubt whether the amendment will achieve entirely what its supporters are seeking as I do not think it will provide for all the circumstances of the national negotiation in the way in which it is alleged. I also take issue with the words used by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, who said that the current arrangements had led to the decimation of probation officer services. I cannot agree with that. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has very helpfully reminded us that the Probation Service is achieving and working very well, a point which is underlined by the latest set of reports. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, was making a point about the different levels of appointment for chief probation officers and the local appointments process for probation officers more generally. I do not agree that that has led in any way or form to the decimation of the service. I would say that the service is doing well and that our necessary reforms will enable it to reach even higher levels of performance. That is our objective, and I am sure that it is shared by all sides of the Committee. I hope that, having heard my words of reassurance, my noble friend will feel able to withdraw the amendment.