Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

I am very grateful to the Minister for that full reply. It is correct to say that a fetter is being imposed on the commission by the way in which this clause is drafted. It allows the commission to enter only a place of detention specified in the exhaustive list set out in subsection (3). When we were debating the Equality Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Ashton of Upholland, was the Minister responsible. She said again and again that she was allergic to prescribing in detail in exhaustive lists in a Bill, and I agree with her. She said that she found that highly bureaucratic and unnecessary and she preferred the least possible specificity and prescription in legislation of this kind. What we do not understand is why it is necessary in the first place. I shall deal with the 17 other bodies shortly but, focusing on why it is necessary, let us suppose that the list were omitted and it simply said that the commission may enter a place of detention in Northern Ireland and left it to the discretion of the commission as to what it should do. That is exactly the position that applies to the existing equality agencies—the Equality Commission in Northern Ireland, the EOC, the CRE and the Disability Rights Commission in Great Britain. If they are carrying out an investigation into suspected discrimination in, say, a prison, nothing in the equality legislation has lists that say these are the only places that they can investigate, and I am not aware that there has ever been a case of abuse. So we simply do not understand why it is necessary—and it is rather heavy-handed to say that the only way to deal with this is not by leaving it to the good sense of the commission or the court in the event of a judicial review but having to introduce by Order in Council an amendment to the list. It would be perfectly possible, I suppose, to have this list for clarity but say, "““or any other similar place of detention””," which would at least not give rise to the need for further Orders in Council. We find it particularly strange, given the other restrictions placed on the investigation, which we will come to later in this clause, which again give the impression that there is a lack of confidence from the beginning in the good sense of the commission, which I am sure that the Minister does not share. It is very important to prevent unnecessary bureaucratic restrictions in the name of certainty from being imposed. As for the point about the 17 other bodies, none of them has the function of this commission, which is to ensure that public authorities in Northern Ireland comply with the international human rights standards by which the United Kingdom as a whole is bound. Of course it is true that all public authorities in our democratic country are subject to inspections of all kinds, including the National Audit Office, ombudsmen, prison inspectors—all the list that the Minister gave us. But that seems no reason to restrict the powers of the commission. If a particular matter, such as deaths in custody in Northern Ireland has been fully investigated already—and the JCHR has investigated that matter—and the proper standards applied by the JCHR, for example, it would be absurd for the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission to use its resources to investigate the same subject with the same standards. If it did so it could and should be criticised. But that is a case in which an investigation has been made into the same issue by another body, which has covered the same ground, and none of the other 17 bodies mentioned by the Minister has this function. Of course, we will consider this matter, but I hope that the Government will also consider whether there might be some flexibility to avoid the list becoming an exhaustive cage for the commission.