Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

It is customary to thank the Minister for his contribution, although I must say at one stage I began to wonder which planet we were on. The Minister said the police ombudsman’s remit does not extend to intelligence, and that she has no role with regard to the intelligence services. Would that that were true. We have dealt with a terrorist situation in Northern Ireland, and we have that situation in Great Britain today. Although I have no direct knowledge of how things are being organised in Great Britain in dealing with Islamist terrorism, I would be very surprised if the same pattern is not developing in the relationship between the intelligence services and the police services largely along the same lines as the relationship developed between those two services in Northern Ireland. In dealing with terrorism, you end up with an almost seamless web between military intelligence, the security service and Special Branch, interfacing with uniformed officers as well. I am drawing the line between saying, ““This is police; the ombudsman looks at this””, and, ““This is intelligence; the ombudsman doesn’t look at this””. That is not what happens in practice; the one feeds into the other. Even if it appears to be a purely police operation involving Special Branch and uniformed officers, the methodology adopted can come over from the intelligence services as well. The methodology will run right through it. In the future in Northern Ireland, particularly with regard to these historic inquiries, there may be a stronger dividing line between the police service and the Security Service. I do not know whether it will be possible to do that, but it may happen. But certainly in the historic inquiries, there is not a clear, hard and fast line between intelligence and the police. That is recognised in the Bill and in new Section 69B, which the Bill inserts in the Northern Ireland Act 1998. In dealing with national and security matters, it refers not only to the intelligence services but to the police service. It recognises that aspects of what the police service does will touch on national security. The provision in new Section 69B is not purely about intelligence; it is about national security. The national security consideration can come into inquiries undertaken by the ombudsman. It will not come into run-of-the-mill police complaints about what the police officer on duty happened to do with regard to a specific situation involving a traffic accident or some other offence, but there will be a range of situations involving national security. If this level of protection for national security is considered appropriate for this agency, then it is equally appropriate for the other agencies. The Minister was clear at the outset about not being able to explore all these matters; he said that he will do what he can to ensure that the Secretary of State focuses on it. I am very glad that he is clearly placing the responsibility on the Secretary of State. We will see on Report the extent to which the Secretary of State has focused on the matter. But it is not open to the Secretary of State—I hope the Secretary of State reads this—to sit there and say, ““Because it is the police ombudsman I’m going to ignore national security considerations””. He might be tempted to say that, but it is not open to him. He does not have a terribly good record, and I am not saying anything about his character because I do not think that that would be appropriate in these circumstances; but I say to the Secretary of State: it is not open to you to ignore national security. There is evidence both in the McCord case andin the Restorick case that matters appertainingto national security which should not have been published have been published. That is indisputable. There is now a problem which needs to be addressed. In 1998, when the Police (Northern Ireland) Act was being passed and the ombudsman’s office was being created, it may have been thought that the provision on guidance which the Minister quoted was sufficient to cover it, but it is not. It has not worked. The same sort of statutory provisions that are being provided for the Human Rights Commission need to apply to not only its inquiries but all inquiries that touch on national security. However, as the Minister has said he will ensure that this matter is looked at, we shall await the outcome of that. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 14 agreed to.