Serious Crime Bill [HL]

I will come to that point, but I want to finish the first issue, because it is important. The debate in the House underlined the increasing seriousness with which our society views environmental crimes. That is why the list is there. The noble Lord, Lord Dear, gave a very good example on salmon fishing of why such an offence is serious; the noble Baroness, Lady Carnegy of Lour, did exactly the same. They are absolutely right: vast sums of money can be made by committing such offences. Many years ago, and it seemed strange at the time, my local authority had a rare orchid collection. We spent a lot of money protecting those rare orchids, and I was told that they had considerable value if there was a market for them. The idea that rare species can be stolen and sold is anathema to me and, probably, to many people in this country. That is why we consider environmental offences, whether they relate to flora, fauna, fishing or whatever, as serious. The noble Baroness partly answered her own point because the orders relate to the prevention of crime. That is why they are set out as they are and why the order-making power is there. Of course we expect that the offences will be dealt with in the normal way, but this is a preventive method. The applicant authority in these cases must prove to the standard set out in McCann, which is likely to be very close to beyond reasonable doubt, that the person who is the proposed subject of the order has been involved in serious crime. That is in Clause 1(1)(a), as I am sure all Members of the Committee appreciate. On the question posed by the noble Baroness about where the list of offences came from, for the most part they originate from the schedule of lifestyle offences included in the Proceeds of Crime Act, with which I am sure noble Lords will be very familiar.We indeed added certain offences, including the environmental offences, but only after careful consultation with stakeholders. In particular, representations were made to us by ACPO on the proposal to include salmon and freshwater fisheries offences. We received advice from the ACPO environmental and wildlife crime lead officer, Chief Constable Richard Bruntsrom of north Wales, who obviously, considering the environment that north Wales covers, has considerable experience in making such recommendations. We have consulted generally and widely among law enforcement authorities and agencies, following which we are keeping the matter under review. It is for that reason that, although I cannot accept the wording set out in Amendments Nos. 48 and 50, we want to give them careful consideration. So we resist Amendments Nos. 49 and 51 but we are prepared to have further discussion outside the Committee about Amendments Nos. 48 and 50. I hope that, having heard that, the noble Baroness will see the rationale behind our approach and our desire to ensure that the schedule is as comprehensive as many noble Lords have suggested it needs to be.