Serious Crime Bill [HL]

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, referred to the Minister’s remarks at Second Reading, when she said that in any debate, at any time of day and on any subject, he brought up the subject of intercepts. That reminds one of Cato the Elder, who preceded any speech that he made in the Roman Senate with his remark, ““Delenda est Carthago””, that is; Carthage must be destroyed. Well, he got his way in the end and Carthage was destroyed, which might have been rather sad for the Carthaginians but was what he wanted. It might be that the noble and learned Lord will get his way in the end—particularly as the Minister said, in her later remarks, that the matter had not been resolved and that the Government were still thinking about it. I hope to add my voice, and that of the Official Opposition, to those who favour the noble and learned Lord’s amendment. Like the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, I am mystified by the Government’s position. Why do they have any doubt about the great importance of intercept evidence in helping to identify criminals? I certainly want to take this opportunity to pay tribute to all those who work in the Security Service and that whole world of the intelligence services. The noble and learned Lord quite rightly said at Second Reading of his Private Member’s Bill in 2005 that, "““We could not do without it””.—[Official Report, 18/11/2005; col. 1301.]" Yet although the use of intercept evidence to identify criminals is well established, we do not permit that same evidence—however compelling it may be—to be used to bring those criminals to trial. That is the effect, as I understand it, of Section 17 of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. We are by no means saying that the use of intercept evidence is the silver bullet. However as Eric Metcalfe, the director of human rights policy at Justice and the author of its report, which I have here and to which the noble and learned Lord referred, put it—