Serious Crime Bill [HL]

I do not think that it will advantage the Committee for us to rerun our debate, which lasted over an hour. Perhaps I can import into this debate the comments that I made in the last; it may assist the Committee if we deal with it in that way. I turn to the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Anelay. She invites us to turn the list in Clause 5 into an exhaustive one. I pray in aid the comments that I made on the two previous amendments about flexibility and the need for acuity in crafting conditions that go to the root and the nature of the individual criminal activity that these orders are designed to prevent. On each occasion, they will differ: the way in which one frames order A will differ from the way in which one frames order B. Any terms imposed by an order would have to be compatible with the convention rights, as required by the Human Rights Act 1998. The provisions are also subject to numerous safeguards in Clauses 6 to 15. For example, Clause 11 provides that a person does not have to give oral answers to questions. The flexibility in Clause 5 allows a targeted order to deal with particular circumstances. With regard to the examples that we gave earlier, a business could be involved in obtaining mailshots. People are invited to participate in a competition that is not real. In practice, the prizes that are offered do not exist or, if they are offered, are worthless. There is no commercial rationale for the operation; its sole purpose—obtaining the mailshots—is to identify likely future candidates for advanced fee fraud. If the perpetrator then sells or obtains a mailshot elsewhere, the law enforcement officer can apply for a prevention order prohibiting that individual from engaging in any activity involving large-scale mailshots. We know that scams of this nature are taking place up and down our country; while many of them are perpetrated by individuals who are not in this jurisdiction, the mailshots take place here. There have been tragic cases of individuals who have lost their entire life savings as a result. As a preventive measure, it would be important to target the serious organised crime, in that instance by obtaining an order to disable that particular individual from appropriating money in that way. The irony is that, had we given no example of the nature of the activity that we wish to interdict, it could have been said that this is even broader, but we have tried to give the framework within which these orders should be set. However, we do not propose that they should be exhaustive. I know that the noble Baroness is a practical individual; she always looks to see what the mischief is and how to frame the response to deal with it. I am confident that neither she nor Members of the Committee would like to disable the court from responding in a proportionate way that was likely to interdict crime that is serious and so invidious and detrimental to the citizens of this country. That is why we have done it in that way; we hope that the framework gives a proper balance between the acuity and the flexibility that one needs. I hope that, given that explanation, the noble Baroness will be slightly happier than she was before I responded.