Serious Crime Bill [HL]

moved Amendment No. 8: 8: Clause 1, page 2, line 11, leave out ““6 to 15 (safeguards)”” and insert ““5 to 15”” The noble Baroness said: I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 52 to 59. We are now referring to Clause 5 because the first amendment is in a sense a paving amendment to refer to the issues in Clause 5. We have already considered the fact that Clause 5 gives examples of what may be the prohibitions, restrictions and requirements imposed by an order. My amendments would convert those examples of what the courts can do into a finite list which would say, ““These are the things you can require people to do, but you cannot in the future just make up your mind to add anything else””. The Government are always careful to describe ASBOs, control orders and now serious crime prevention orders as preventive rather than punitive, and we have had long debates on that in relation to earlier amendments. Earlier today, for example, the Minister said that a restriction on international travel would be what I believe she called a ““preventer”” against international crime. My noble and learned friend Lord Mayhew of Twysden pointed out in the same debate that what one has to look at is the effect of an action—not what you call it, but its effect. Members on these Benches have a problem with the Government’s insistence that these are preventive measures. We are not convinced. An order does not become preventive just because one calls it that. Further, the examples listed in Clause 5 certainly have the ring of punishment about them. As the briefing from the Criminal Bar Association sent to noble Lords today points out, the consequences of serious crime prevention orders are highly punitive. The noble Baroness has said that they would become punitive only on breach. The Committee will have to decide whether it is punitive before that stage because Clause 5 provides an extensive, non-exhaustive list of prohibitions, restrictions and requirements that the order could impose. When asking the Public Bill Office’s assistance in drafting the text of this amendment—as ever, I thank the staff for their exhaustive work on my behalf—I started from the premise that I heartily dislike legislation by examples. It lacks the clarity and certainty that we expect, and have a right to expect, from legislation. It is important that the Government should be asked to justify why they have chosen this method of giving examples, why they rejected other methods of drafting the clause and why they need to list the prohibitions merely as examples—what else could be added that could possibly be appropriate and proportionate? I shall briefly mention the text of the amendments. Amendment No. 8 simply amends Clause 1 so that the powers of the court in imposing an order are subject to Clause 5 in addition to Clauses 6 to 15—they are all consequently designated as safeguards. That makes it possible for us to convert the examples in Clause 5 into the finite list, and Amendments Nos. 52 to 59 do just that. I beg to move.