Prevention of Terrorism Act 2005 (Continuance in force of sections 1 to 9) Order 2007

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have contributed so powerfully to the debate. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Slynn, asked whether the Government would need to have another bloody nose before we looked at this matter again. As the recipient of a number of your Lordships’ blows and this being domestic violence month, I am very conscious that there is a need to reassure the House about the necessity for these control orders. I remind the House that, if this order is not renewed, they will lapse on 10 March this year. From all the comments that have been made, it is clear that that is not the House’s intention. Therefore, I commend the approach taken by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, in tabling a non-fatal amendment to it, as it has enabled us to have a very wide-ranging and purposeful debate. I agree entirely with what has been said, particularly by the noble Lord, Lord Dear, about the need to be proportionate and to ensure that our system is not undermined. It is right that those factors are very much borne in mind. Indeed, throughout all our deliberations on how we should respond to terrorism, the response of this House has been that we should be judicious and careful so that we do not give adventitious advantage to terrorists, who seek to undermine our democratic process. It is a question of balance and judgment. I think that all Members of the House would agree that there is a line between a derogating order and a non-derogating order. Often it is a question of fact and degree as to whether an order falls on one side of the line or another. A number of orders have been made, maintained and sustained, when there has been no suggestion that they are in the zone of a derogating order. I need to reiterate what I said at the beginning. There is an absolute commitment and need to prosecute if and whenever possible. That is the preferred choice. I hear what my noble friend Lord Plant said about there being almost a paucity of such orders, and that they have been rarely used. The reason why there have been so few orders is because their use is carefully monitored and judicious; they are used only when absolutely necessary. I remind the House of what the independent reviewer, the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, said. I accept, as the noble Lord, Lord Lester, made clear, that the noble Lord did not review the question in relation to the JCHR. He said in relation to each control order that he agreed with the judgment made by my right honourable friend the Home Secretary that in those circumstances, and for those individuals, the control order regime was necessary and appropriate. It is important for us to use these orders, but to do so judiciously, as noble Lords have said. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for the clarity with which he accepted that there are and were circumstances where some form of control order is necessary, and that it is essential to subject such orders to review. I agree with him. We need to remember too, the circumstances in which we found ourselves in 2005. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, and others who reminded us of that chronology. I hope, therefore, that the House will not mind me reminding it about the scepticism expressed at that time about the likelihood that we would be subject to a terrorist attack. Some in this House even went as far as to assert that the Government were simply trying to frighten the public by making such a suggestion, and that it was almost spurious. We know that that was not the case. There have been serious threats, which our security services and our police have worked tirelessly and successfully in the past few years to prevent coming to fruition. All sides of the House commend them for their energy. I know that repeatedly we have had the issue of intercept, which we will come back to and be asked about again. The Government have made it clear that there is no objection to the use of intercept in principle if it can be used safely and appropriately. I do not demur from anything that has been said by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd different legal and other officers who have raised the utility. Each has said, ““if it can be safely used””. That has always been the caveat and something that the Government continue to look at vigorously and carefully. However, it is right to say that intercept evidence is not a panacea. Therefore, even if we were able to use it, which is not admitted, it is likely that there would still be cases that would fall outwith the realm of prosecution. We would still have to look at what regime we need to put in place to deal with those few but important cases. It is for that reason that we have changed many things. I accept and acknowledge the comments made by noble Lords about the introduction of the Prevention of Terrorism Act. We have not stood still but have changed things and brought in new legislation. We have demonstrated this with the new offences introduced by the Terrorism Act 2006 which have already been used in prosecutions, with around 20 individuals charged under such offences by the end of December 2006. Of our four legislative proposals raised during the debate in the other place, two are already in place—the threshold test and the plea bargaining for supergrasses—and the other two—the intercept as evidence and post-charge questioning—are under active consideration. Even with all the changes already made or proposed, however, a small number of cases will remain where prosecution is just not possible, as I said earlier. Control orders remain the best option. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lester, from bringing the developments with the Supreme Court judgment in Canada on Friday of last week to my attention. I reassure him that I was in Canada talking about this very issue with my Canadian counterparts last week, and about how we move forward. We will look with great care at what the Supreme Court says in that decision.