Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Bill

My Lords, I accept that; clearly I shall have to come before the Grand Committee briefed to deal with it. This is not a question for decision at Second Reading. These are issues of concern to the Joint Committee and they must be treated seriously. I am being reminded by my noble friend and colleague Lady Farrington that she will hit me if I do not sit down in a moment. I want to make a further point in response to the noble Lord, Lord Lester. Paragraphs 1.88 and 1.89 of the Joint Committee report suggest that the Bill should require members of the Armed Forces to state reasons for arrest. The Armed Forces power of arrest is limited to four hours. Within that time and as soon as possible the person will be rearrested by a police officer who has been trained to read to the individual their rights and cite what offence they are being arrested for. So I hope that people will be told why they are being arrested. It would not be possible to train members of the Armed Forces to the same standard as a police officer, particularly given that these powers will be used very rarely. Although the Armed Forces currently give a broad description of why they are arresting someone, throwing a petrol bomb for example, it is not necessary or easy to turn this into a statutory obligation. Re-arrest within four hours by the police means that the power is human rights compliant. I accept that the noble Lordis worried about cases leading to declarations of incompatibility, but we are confident that that will not happen. The Army has been using similar powers for years without such a declaration. There is a bit of history to this; it is not new. In the last part of the Joint Committee document, paragraph 1.96 refers to powers to ensure that searches for munitions and transmitters are not disrupted and may not be compliant with Article 5 of the convention, on the right to liberty. These powers normally amount to a restriction of liberty rather than detention. The important distinction was recognised by the House of Lords in recent case law. Where Article 5 of the ECHR is engaged, the power can be justified in terms of seeking to secure the fulfilment of an obligation proscribed by law and to safeguard the public in explosives cases. We intend to provide some further guidance on exercising that power. It is essential to remember that these powers are necessary to ensure the safety of the officers involved and the public. They will be used in a limited manner and only when necessary. There are other points, and I accept that I have not answered all of them, but they will certainly come to Grand Committee. I need to answer two points made by the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, as a courtesy. On whether the Security Industry Authority is equipped to deal with paramilitaries, we are confidant that it can meet the challenge. Officials are working with the SIA and the police to address the issue. I realise that there have been some administration and bureaucracy issues, with a lot of last-minute applications, which is always the case and can lead to difficulties. The noble Lord mentioned small venues which are not covered by the Safety of Sports Grounds Act and asked whether they will be burdened with SIA regulation. We do not wish to place unnecessary burdens on smaller sports venues in Northern Ireland, but we are obliged to ensure the safety and security of all citizens in Northern Ireland. Our officials are in discussion with the Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure and the Sports Council for Northern Ireland about the issue. It is a matter that will require further consideration. As for whether stewards will be covered by the legislation, the Security Industry Authority considers the full range of activities that an individual performs when deciding whether they are to be licensed. For example, checking tickets, directing spectators or visitors and providing safety advice are not normally licensable activities. These activities would be licensable only if they were undertaken together with a manned guarding activity. I have lots of brief on definitions of manned guarding activity, but we do not need to go into that now. I am grateful for the contributions that we have received. I sincerely hope that we will have a successful Grand Committee. There is a fair amount of time between now and the first Grand Committee sitting; I do not have the date but it is a few weeks away. There is enough time for informal discussions and for amendments to be suggested. We are open, as is known, to making officials available to Members to see what they want to achieve, what is possible and whether we can have the necessary debate. On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Grand Committee.