Concessionary Bus Travel Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords for raising these important issues, which we considered at earlier stages of the Bill. As I have explained, the Bill is about expanding the geographical scope of concessionary bus travel, not about extending the concession to other groupsof people or other modes, as envisaged by these amendments. As the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, was generous enough to acknowledge, the Transport Act 1985 provides local authorities with considerable flexibility to offer more than the statutory concession to their residents. There are numerous examples of councils offering concessions to additional groups of people and companions of disabled people and, as we discussed at other stages, concessions on community transport services. I understand that the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, was emphasising the money aspect. We shall have a chance to discuss that later this afternoon but, at this stage, I indicate that his amendments would cost money. The Bill does not stop local authorities continuing to use their discretionary powers to provide enhancements to the proposed national minimum, taking account of their local circumstances. The Government have sought to provide local authorities with more freedom and flexibility in choosing how they use their resources so as to best reflect their local priorities. That approach has been supported by local government. As I indicated on Report, at present we are not in a position to commit further funding to concessionary travel. As the noble Lord, Lord Low, indicated, a very sizeable sum has been allocated for the introduction of the main proposition behind the Bill. Therefore, I am sure that noble Lords will agree that we have already done a great deal to improve the well-being of older and disabled people, who are among the most vulnerable in society. I hope that noble Lords will forgive me for repeating that from April 2008, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, generously acknowledged, the Government will be providing around £1 billion of funding each year for concessionary travel in England—a major public spending commitment of which we are rightly proud. The extension from the local to the national entitlement alone involves substantial new money of up to £250 million. Although the costs associated with these amendments are not likely to be hundreds of millions of pounds a year, they are significant. This is, of course, money that would have to be found from other areas. On Report, I provided the department’s initial estimates of the annual cost of the extensions envisaged by the amendments—around an extra£10 million a year for carers, approximately£50 million for people with mental impairments and at least £25 million for community transport. Those costs are purely indicative and could be much higher, depending on the eligibility definitions, which are far from clear at present, the degree of take-up, the extra concessionary travel which may well be generated,the switch from other modes, travel behaviour andthe amount of additional capacity required. The existence of all those inter-related factors, which at this stage we can only estimate, makes the issue of costs very difficult, but they are not insubstantial, particularly against the background of the money that has already been devoted to the Bill. We are not ruling out such extensions in the future, although noble Lords will recognise that I am not in a position to make commitments now—less so now that, as from today, I have moved from this brief to the Treasury. In any case, our concerns are not confined to issues of resources. As explained in Committee and on Report, these amendments raise a number of complex practical problems. I remain concerned about the potential implications of Amendment No. 1 for the community transport sector, as I emphasised during our previous discussions. Introducing a full waiver of the fare for a large number of people would represent a significant shift for community transport in this country. We have had no assurances that the community transport sector could meet the extra demand generated from such a change, certainly in the short term. If we accepted Amendment No. 1, we would run the risk of disappointing many vulnerable people who might not be able to access the services that they would have the right to expect. Such a change would also place additional administrative burdens on the community transport sector, which is of course voluntary. Not all community transport operators may actually want to be included in a mandatory scheme. We hear that some operators are concerned aboutthe extra administrative, accounting and auditing requirements that would result from inclusion. That may discourage volunteers from donating their time to help to run these very valuable services. Wealso hear that some are worried by the potentialloss of autonomy, the loss of the voluntary ethosand the potential push that that will give to commercialisation. It is only proper that all operators are given a full opportunity to comment on these proposals as they may have profound implications for the voluntary sector. We would also need to think very carefully about the potential impact of such an extension on current rural bus services. Marginal routes would almost certainly be affected adversely if free travel were available on all community transport. The noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, made that point in his contribution on Report. In the wider work that the department is carrying out on bus policy, following the Putting Passengers First document published in December last year, we have been and will continue to engage with those representing community transport interests. We very much value their input. I understand from the noble Lord, Lord Low, that over the coming months stakeholder groups may be doing more work on the issues raised in his amendments concerning the definition of disability. As I have indicated to him, we would of course be interested to see that work. I hope that it will look at the practical and administrative issues that I have mentioned, such as definitions, the problem of the mitigation of fraud, and the fair assessment of those who are eligible. We know, for example, that there is sensitivity around the use of the words ““carer””, ““companion”” or ““personal assistant””. We will be happy to discuss those matters in more detail once the national bus concession has been in place for a yearor so. We have also noted the concerns, expressed eloquently by noble Lords on behalf of stakeholder groups, about the interpretation of the Secretary of State’s guidance to local authorities on eligibilityof disabled people for concessionary travel. The department keeps that guidance under constant review. Indeed, we reissued it just over a year ago in November 2005. Shortly, we shall be meeting with the concessionary fares stakeholder group, which consists of about 20 different organisations representing the interests of older and disabled people. The guidance on the definition of disability is something we can discuss with them as part of the implementation of the national concession, as the noble Lord, Lord Low, was pressing me to do. We are particularly interested to understand whether there are genuine issues on ambiguity of interpretation of the current definitions. We are more than happy to discuss these matters in more detail with stakeholders and to discuss any work they may have undertaken, once the new national concession is up and running. I am pleased that we have had the opportunity to discuss these important issues on the Floor of the House and in private discussions to which the noble Lord, Lord Low, has made an outstanding contribution. I thank noble Lords for their contributions. However, at this stage, I cannot accept the amendments, which although well intentioned are premature and I do not believe they represent the best way forward. I hope that noble Lords feel assured that we will keep the issues under close review; and we are prepared to meet interested parties on them. I hope that noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments and that the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, feels able to withdraw Amendment No. 1.