Welfare Reform Bill

My Lords, one of the advantages of being called on to sum up a debate is that I can refer to noble Lords who have clarified points. This is an odd Bill. Getting people off benefits and into work whenever they want is rather like motherhood and apple pie—how could anyone possibly be against it? The problem is how to do it effectively and to benefit people without damaging a few of them, some of them or all of them along the way; that is, how to minimise the risks and personal damage. That is where the problems lie. Throughout this debate noble Lords have said that the Bill is a good idea, but they have also asked about this or that aspect of it. Thatis not unusual in this area, and I do not think thatthe Minister will thank the business managers for scheduling the debate on the Mental Health Bill so close to this debate. I turn to the concerns that have been raised. The main point was that the provisions’ success or failure will lie in work-focused interviews and activity. In practice, the provisions will stand or fall on correctly placing people according to their skills, condition and disability. How can we give people the back-up they need to get off benefits and into the workplace? I have long been dealing with disability matters in this House, and there have always been two issues to address: perception and practical help. I believe that perception is the first issue to address. If it is perceived that someone in a wheelchair is unemployable, to take an easy example, he will be unemployable because he will be told that he cannot work. The minute the problem is addressed in a slightly more lateral manner, it becomes a minor problem because other jobs that he can do will be discovered. But people in wheelchairs are comparatively easy to deal with provided that that is their only problem. Although they have a movement problem, modern regulations have been introduced to help enable them to get into offices. Much work is based around modern business technology—PCs—and using a keyboard. Many people in wheelchairs will not have great difficulty using that technology once the initial impact of doing the job has been overcome. When we get to the more complicated group of people with mental health problems, the perception is that that they are all raging psychopaths waiting with an axe at the coffee vending machine, or that if they hear a cross word they will break down in tears or not turn up the next day. They will not do those things. Those perceptions must be broken down. Other legislation has attempted to do so. The Government must take that on board when they implement this legislation or much of it will fail that group. The noble Lord, Lord Low, made the excellent point that certain groups—those with straightforward mobility problems, for example—can be creamed off and dealt with quite easily now. Other groups with physical disabilities will be more difficult because they are not understood. Unless we co-ordinate what can be done and what should be done, we will fail. The conditionality clauses, Clauses 10 to 15, are where the legislation will stand or fall. Unless we get the right support for people undertaking interviews and assessments, everything else will be of limited value. I have looked at the Bill and dealt with this subject over a number of years, so I shall ask the Government a series of questions about the conditionality process that go back to the theme of training which the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, and I have raised. I did catch the spray from that shot across my bows. When a person’s needs are more complex and they belong to two groups, things can get more complicated. As has been pointed out to me, somebody who has AIDS or a physical disability may have more reason to be slightly depressed than someone who does not. It may be complicated to place a target group of people with a complicated cocktail of disabilities. How do we address placing them when they have to face two sets of perceptions? Provision for training and best practice should be written into the Bill, as should a duty on those undertaking the assessment and interview to call on expertise and support when they feel they need it, or suspect they do, in order to prevent the wrong advice being given. Such advice has led to successful appeals under the current system. If we achieve a degree of success in this part of the Bill, we will have made real progress. Although I appreciate that this will have to be teased out in Committee, I hope that the Government will give us some idea about the linkages—the joined-up government, if we must use that now rather worn expression—with the Government’s awareness programme for employers. Let us concentrate on the employers who do not feel a need to employ a public relations firm; that is, the small employers who are supposedly the dynamic part of the economy. The big people who have big advertising budgets know how to implement the Government’s schemes. They also know that it is worth their while to do so, because they are playing at a higher level. How are the Government getting into the small and medium-sized parts of the economy to address the bad perceptions facing some groups? If we could hear about such linkages and co-ordinate them with support for those implementing the system, I would be considerably less worried less about it. If we do not address those problems we will have real trouble. We may unintentionally go backwards and not forwards. But that probably will not happen because of creaming-off. People will say, ““Statistically, we were able to do this””. But that will have been comparatively easy. We could create a second class of people who are pushed yet further back. I think that people suffering from mental health problems will probably comprise the biggest part of that group. We have to press on. The situation will change as drug treatments, like support for those with physical disabilities, improve. We must be able to update and inform these people on a rolling basis. I could flog that point to death, but I should look more widely at other parts of the Bill. For example, will the Government themselves take action to improve access to work? All noble Lords have mentioned that point although it was supposed to be the best-kept secret. I wonder how the Budget will survive such secrecy. I believe that the departments themselves are supposed to be taking on the related expenditure. How much money is being put asideto implement this? Is there a guarantee that theresult will not be departments which need three clerks deciding not to hire someone in a wheelchair because accommodating them would take up some of their budget and allow them to hire only two clerks? How will that be addressed in the departments? It would be an interesting example for other employers. I can quickly address the housing benefit provisions in Part 2. The single room rent issue is an anomaly of catastrophic proportions. It guarantees that a young unemployed person will be discriminated against. As the prison statistics show, many young unemployed males end up in prison. I therefore again urge the departments to look over their shouldersat other departments. Also, on housing benefit,what exactly will be the on-costs? Perhaps a little punishment and a rap across the knuckles are in order here. I wonder what exactly the costs will be as people lose housing benefit because they are badly behaved and lead chaotic lives. I suggest that it will only build on the problems, not remove them. One may feel better by implementing the provisions until they come back to you on your doorstep. We can look at many other issues. I think that the noble Baroness, Lady Murphy, said that one should monitor the processes and the IT systems. It is vital to monitor everything to do with this system. During the Bill’s passage we have to ensure as a collective unit that the Government clearly answer how they think their regulations will come in and how they will create a system that stands a chance of working. Unless they support their front-line staff to make correct decisions and give them the flexibility to call in the help they need, we will end up having to address this issue again—after perhaps five years of hiding behind statistics that are rapidly moved round to show that everything is fine, until we have to admit that it is not.