Concessionary Bus Travel Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords, particularly to the noble Lord, Lord Low, for introducing the amendment. I have considerable sympathy with his case. Although I cannot accept this amendment as it stands, we have an intervening period before Third Reading and I am only too willing to meet him and see whether we can get a meeting of minds on how to tackle the problem that is rather more to his advantage than he may see in my straightforward rejection of his amendment. I shall identify some of the difficulties that we have to overcome, some of which I identified in Committee. The noble Lord said that he thought that Amendment No. 4 was an exercise in consolidation, but we will have to beg to differ on that. To the department, paragraph (g) looks like more than consolidation; it looks like the introduction into the Bill of an extra and quite significant concept. I hear what he says about aspects of the marginal costs involved. In our discussions we will have to discuss those costs more extensively. I am not sure that they are quite as marginal as he suggests. However, the amendment breaks new ground. If it were carried, the implications for this legislation and the Government would be considerable. We accept exactly what the noble Lord says as a main principle—that access to transport has an important part to play in reducing social exclusion. This is why we are extending the geographical scope of the statutory minimum concession to guarantee that older people, and the groups of disabled people provided for in the Transport Act 2000 and the Greater London Authority Act 1999, can access important services outside their local boundary by bus for free. That is where the costs of this legislation obtain. The Bill is not about extending the concessionto other groups of people by changing current definitions. If we want to change those definitions, we can do so by order under the Transport Act 2000 powers. If local authorities want to do so, they have a discretion under the Transport Act 1985 to offer travel concessions to groups other than those specified in present legislation. However, as I stated in Committee, we are not yet in a position to commit further funding to concessionary travel. The Bill and existing provisions will cost £1 billion per year in statutory concessionary travel to improve the mobility of older and disabled people. That is a very substantial spending commitment. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Low, will in all fairness recognise the progress which has been made in extending this provision to the most vulnerable in our society. Estimating how much it might cost to extend the concession to people with a mental impairment is very difficult as it depends very much on the exact definition. When one is aware of the extensiveness of diagnosable mental health problems in our population, one recognises that a very large number of people might be covered by the provision. We are talking about significant numbers. Our initial estimate is that it might cost as much as £50 million a year, but we cannot be definitive about that figure. It could be more. It is not just a question of resources. A number of practical and administrative issues would have to be considered and resolved before we made such an extension. We would need to set up a robust and fair system for assessing eligibility against the definition of mental impairment. That is no straightforward matter. It is also important that all those with an interest and expertise in the area are consulted before we legislate in those terms. Changing the definition of disabled person in the Bill, which is what the amendment would do, is somewhat premature because we have not been involved in such consultations, as that was not part of our intent with this legislation. We must focus on the task in hand—the delivery of the new national bus concession. A lot of work has been done to deliver this major improvement, which will benefit many disabled people without having to implement a further change on which they have not been consulted. I recognise the strength of the advocacy of the noble Lord, Lord Low. I reiterate that I am prepared to meet before Third Reading with him, the noble Lord, Lord Hanningfield, if he would like to be involved, and any other noble Lords interested in the matter. However, I hasten to add that Third Reading is not that far away. I am certainly prepared to discuss the matter further, but I should like the noble Lord to reflect on what I have said today and what we said in Committee and recognise that there are real difficulties for the Government in accepting an amendment of this kind. I hope that he will reflect on the matter and withdraw the amendment today. Perhaps we can advance the matter further in discussion when this stage is completed.