Consumers, Estate Agents and Redress Bill [HL]

My Lords, I read with great interest the Written Statement of 20 November made by the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry on the Bill. From it, I learnt that the Government, "““are committed to a robust and effective consumer and competition regime””.—[Official Report, 20/11/06; col. WS 15.]" I am sure that we all share that aim. It was followed by a short paragraph explaining the importance of consumers in achieving the aim and another paraphrasing the contents of the Bill. The fourth paragraph summarised events relating to doorstep selling and led into the remainder of the Statement, which consisted of seven further paragraphs, all on estate agents. Those are all important matters but, in my contribution, I shall leave the subject of estate agents aside and concentrate on the National Consumer Council, which I think is more controversial. The noble Lord, Lord O’Neill of Clackmannan, explained why he has reservations, and some of his comments will be very much reflected in my contribution. Citizens Advice welcomes the Bill but it wants much stronger powers, particularly in relation to the regulators and the Government. The present consumer councils are worried that their expertise may be lost in a large cross-sector body, which is exactly what the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, has just said. I am uneasy that another overarching body is being set up under these proposals, bringing organisations together and saving money in the process. The Gershon review has resulted in genuine savings in quite a few areas, with which we are all familiar. However, at what point will the drive for savings start to adversely affect the effectiveness of the bodies that are being established? My noble friends Lady Wilcox and Lady Oppenheim-Barnes both voiced their concerns, particularly about how the new body will be financed. I accept that this is a DTI matter, and perhaps the DTI manages its money better, but one remembers the launch of Natural England only a month ago. On the day it was launched with a full flurry, Defra said that its funding would be cut by£12 million, which was a big concern to that body. So I hope that, when the Minister responds, he will be able to reassure us on the financial side. Energywatch, the consumer watchdog for gas and electricity, has written with a number of highly pertinent questions. The most important is probably whether consumers will have easy access to an improved service. I caution the Government against travelling any further along the road of using only phone or internet access. Listening to a tinny recording of Mozart for 40 minutes is not easy access. The advice to ““go on our website”” is, for many people, not possible to follow, but unfortunately there seems to be a strong correlation between those without internet access and those who have serious problems with their power supplier. Again, I would be grateful for some comment from the Minister. Energywatch wants to know whether there will be more support to the most vulnerable complainants. Moreover, it has pointed out that, although under the ““joined-up”” NCC the complainant will be able to receive immediate advice from Consumer Direct, nobody will act on their behalf for three months, as the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, said. Many of those families cannot wait three months, and we need to address that issue. If you have just received a bill that is five times normal, if you have spent three hours on separate occasions and a lot of money in a phone box, and if you are threatened with disconnection, you do not want to have to wait three months before someone acts on your behalf. I have asked around and find that Energywatch is well thought of. If it considers a complaint to be well founded, it contacts the supplier, whose response to the customer is virtually immediate. In my book, an effective watchdog is one that has an effect on suppliers. How do the Government propose to ensure that the amalgamated body loses none of the touch of the constituent parts? If savings are to be made, what elements of those constituent parts will be reduced or cut altogether? I hope that the Minister will enlighten us on the detail as the Bill progresses. My main concern with the Bill is the proposal to toss Postwatch into the pot to be known as the National Consumer Council even although the Water Council is to be excepted for the moment. Of the elements vital to life, light, heat and power are more important than post, but water is more important still. The water watchdog may be included at some time in the future but not at present. I would be glad if the Minister would tell us why, because that seems to be an odd omission. The Post Office is an issue on which I have spoken in the House very solidly for the past six or seven years. Post Office services reflect the changes that are taking place in our society. We are moving fast from a position in which most people went to the Post Office for something most months to one where those with money for mobile phones and the bills they bring, home computers and virus scans, internet access and the associated costs of training and connection no longer need the Post Office. They pay their bills by phone, they e-mail friends and family instead of writing letters and they send presents using online services. Many of those people have several bank accounts and, should they require any form of state aid or subsidy, they will have no problem in supplying the details needed for automated payment. They are also well paid and do not need to worry about paying bills only when there are sufficient funds to do so. They rarely use cash and the money that they owe does not interfere with their normal banking experiences. Unfortunately, as the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, suggested, there are several million people, many of them elderly, who do not share this modern wayof life. They are either totally dependent on the state or have only a small income topped up by tax credits and various benefits. Not for them the generous overdraft facilities, the personal loans and the larger mortgages. The banks do not want their custom. In particular, they do not want their overdraft. It is distressing that someone who is forced into seeking state aid can be compelled to have it paid into a bank account only for that bank to remove a large part of that money to service a small overdraft. The threatened closure of the Post Office card account will mean that many people who have solely their state pension will be able to access it only through a bank account and will run into banking rules with banking-scale charges. Already one bank has imposed current account charges for customers with less than £1,500 either on deposit or as a minimum monthly input. Over the months, I have listened to some rather weasel words from various Ministers when I have raised the question of post offices and how people can access money that is due to them. I am extremely concerned about the long-term banking accounts that may be withdrawn. Do people perhaps not know that there are 2 to 3 million people out there who cannot afford to allow anyone to take money automatically from their little store? The winter heating allowance was brought in when officials realised that many elderly people were cold because they simply had no money for extra fuel. Can the Minister tell us how many people who pay their energy bills by direct debit reach the end of the financial year owing the energy supplier money? A very quick straw poll at the weekend gave me to understand that more people, like me, find that the supplier had taken more money than was required. Paying by direct debit may earn a small discount on the basic price of the fuel but, if you are on a small fixed weekly income, you cannot afford to pay one penny more than you need to, even if you get a little extra back at the end of the year. People on low incomes still prefer to deal in cash. They prefer to walk to the local post office to draw it out over the counter. In rural areas, the nearest bank may be more than walking distance away. Many customers are suspicious of banks. So what right do the Government have to dictate that those who have paid their stamps over the years should access their money only through a bank account? Do they not realise the problems that some people have in getting one? Was there any discussion of the possible repercussions of refusing straightforward access to cash? The closure of these post offices represents a large number of urban and rural communities that have lost their heart, thousands of people who have lost their support system and yet more who are now further socially isolated. I wish this new body well, but I hope that, through my small, humble contribution today, it will realise that a whole swathe of people cannot access services in the way that the Government would perhaps wish just because it would save them money. In the Committee days ahead, we must give serious consideration to ensuring that we are inclusive. In her excellent opening speech, my noble friend Lady Wilcox said that we must defend the most vulnerable in our society. I am worried that we may fail them if we do not really look at the Bill in Committee.