Violent Crime Reduction Bill

My Lords, I am most grateful to the noble Baroness for her very constructive introduction to business this afternoon. Her use of the word ““staggering”” towards a conclusion on this Bill was probably an inadvertent pun relating to the matters in hand. We like to think that we are moving to a clinical finish on effective legislation; but descriptions can get lost in translation. I am grateful to her also for her kind comments about the work that has been undertaken during the Recess. I trust that we can make good progress this afternoon on Report. I apologise in advance if some of my explanations are lengthier than they might otherwise have been but that will be because we want to try to address the issues to which the noble Baroness has alluded. I shall now address the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. The noble Lord will not be surprised to hear that these amendments do not find great favour with the Government. I hope that he will not take offence at that, but clearly we have a difference of view—a carefully and well understood difference of view. The group of amendments would together have the effect of restricting the circumstances in which an individual can be given a drinking banning order to engagement in criminal but not disorderly behaviour. The House will be aware that amendments on similar lines were proposed in Committee. We have now debated this matter at some length in the other place and in this House. It is worth emphasising that the latest British Crime Survey tells us that some 24 per cent of people say that people being drunk or rowdy in public places is a ““very”” or ““fairly”” big problem in their area. The behaviour of those who misuse alcohol can intimidate members of the public and cause disorder and general nuisance, and we cannot ignore that fact. In Committee, I referred to some examples of what might constitute disorderly conduct but might not necessarily be caught by the criminal law. I mentioned noise nuisance and disturbance, the kicking of dustbins late at night, or shouting or swearing in the street as examples of disorderly conduct. I am sure that many of us come across that sort of thing from time to time. It is however not the case that any sort of conduct that could be described as someone causing a noise or making a nuisance of themselves could lay that person open to a drinking banning order. The conditions for an order are clearly set out in the Bill: the individual must have engaged in criminal or disorderly conduct while under the influence of alcohol; and as such an order must be necessary to protect other persons from further conduct by him of that kind while under the influence of alcohol. The Government have sought to explain to both Houses that numerous recent statutes refer to both crime and disorder, including the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, the Licensing Act 2003 and the Anti-social Behaviour Act 2003. The Crime and Disorder Act 1998 refers to both crime and disorder as distinct concepts. The courts have demonstrated that they are perfectly capable of deciding what does, and what does not, constitute ““disorderly behaviour””. It is important that we do not remove the word ““disorderly”” from the Bill. We should not lose sight of the aim of this new measure, which is to help achieve a culture change in binge drinking, to discourage unacceptable alcohol-fuelled behaviour, to deal appropriately with such behaviour when it occurs and to protect people from harm caused by alcohol-related disorderly behaviour. We understand that there is a difference between us. We do not accept the noble Lord’s argument. We think that we have the balance about right on this offence. We know that similar anti-social behaviour measures work well and that there is widespread public support for them. I therefore suggest that the noble Lord withdraw the amendment.