Commons Bill [Lords]

I echo the remarks made by my neighbour and right hon. Friend the Member for Penrith and The Border (David Maclean). Our constituencies are very similar in landscape and share a military training area. I can also vouch for how well Defence Estates manages the Otterburn training ranges. They are a first class example of good conservation. The Minister may have an escape route, which he will need, because clause 38 is very prescriptive and could cause problems. Clause 40, however, will allow the introduction of regulations, and I hope that he will introduce regulations that will advise on this point. As my right hon. Friend has just said, the everyday activities of hill farmers would put them in breach of some of the restrictions in clause 38. As the hon. Member for Sherwood (Paddy Tipping) knows, the north Pennines are riddled with underground shafts, left by the lead mines. Indeed, one can still travel four or five miles underground in old tunnels, if one knows the way, that were carved in the rock by the lead miners. Sometimes the old shafts open up and are clearly a danger both to livestock and to people who have the right to roam in the area. It is reasonable for a farmer, therefore, to put up some fencing around it. Similarly, there is often bad weather at lambing time, so people put up temporary lambing sheds, either polytunnels, which are not very attractive, or old containers, which are even less attractive—that is farming in the hillsides. It is nonsense to suggest farmers would be in breach of this legislation if they were to do that. The question also arises in connection with the maintenance of paths and roads. The north Pennines have a wide network of tracks, some of which get very boggy. On the more heavily used tracks, such as the Pennine way, people divert around the boggy patch and spread the path wider and wider. A farmer may dump some spare stone at that point to create some hard standing and stop the widening of the path, which damages the surrounding landscape, and protect the delicate turf. All the examples that the House has heard today are important to day-to-day management of the land. At the moment, local farmers have to get consent if they want to put up some fencing, and the procedure is extremely cumbersome. In one case, an application to put up permanent fencing to stop animals straying on to an increasingly busy road went through the whole planning procedure and was eventually determined by a planning inspector in Bristol. That sort of thing takes months. I hope that the Minister will be able to frame regulations under clause 40 to introduce a de minimis criterion so that farmers who do sensible things in the normal course of their activities are not impeded or placed on the wrong side of the law.