Government of Wales Bill

Once again, my Lords, I respectfully ask the noble Lord opposite to present some consistency. It appears that the intention behind these amendments is that by removing the clauses the Assembly would move straight to Part 4 of the Bill without the need for a referendum. The enthusiasm for devolution now on the part of the Liberal Democrats is such that no referendum is necessary at all. I am not sure when that is triggered off. After all, the mechanism for commencement of these provisions is contained in Clause 104 and the amendment takes that out, so we have lost any capacity to form a timescale. Presumably the amendments are based on the intention that they would come into force immediately after the Assembly election in May 2007. A moment ago we had an amendment that indicated it should not be as early as that, and just before that I had support from the Liberal Democrat Benches for the Government’s contention that the attempt of the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, to reduce the figures for a referendum might lead to a premature referendum and difficulty. Again, the Government are entirely consistent in their position. I am afraid these amendments attack that consistency. Our view is that Part 4 can only come into play after a referendum. A referendum will have to be carefully considered. It will need the support of a two-thirds majority of the Assembly and the support of Parliament, because it is right that a constitutional decision of this kind should be the subject of a view by Parliament as a whole. All that is predicated on the assumption that to get the concept of the referendum wrong would be to damage a devolution settlement. It would not destroy the devolution settlement, because, at least, in that sense, one could say that one was going back to square one and a situation where there was no National Assembly, but we are talking about a devolution settlement in which the Assembly would exist with powers under the existing legislation but having had a referendum against it showing no confidence in an enhancement of its powers, which is bound to do it damage. That is why the Government’s position is carefully calibrated against the presumption that politicians—elected Members of the Assembly and of Parliament—must reach the difficult decision to enhance for the people of Wales the powers of their Assembly. The amendment would drive a coach and horses through that concept.