Government of Wales Bill

moved Amendment No. 62:"Page 57, line 19, leave out ““two-thirds”” and insert ““55 per cent””" The noble Lord said: My Lords, in the light of the earlier admonitions from the noble Lord, Lord Evans of Temple Guiting, and the hovering figure of the Government Chief Whip, I hope to reassure them by saying that much of what I had originally intended to say on this amendment I said long before the dinner hour on an earlier amendment. However, I have been encouraged since then by a number of remarks made by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, who I am sorry not to see in his place. He spoke of increasing optimism about the likely outcome of a referendum and mentioned again the weaknesses in the mechanism of Part 3 and the great problems it presents. Encouragingly, he spoke of moving as quickly as possible on to Part 4. I respect the position of Liberal Party Members and their hostility to referendums. It is a perfectly respectable position, but they have accepted that the provision is in the Bill. Indeed, they put down an amendment in Committee identical to my amendment to remove the powers of intervention by the Secretary of State. They have put down a further amendment today to restrict the time in which he can intervene. So we obviously have common ground and I hope that when they have heard what I have to say, they will be able to go a long way with me. I am particularly sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, has had to leave because in an earlier debate he accused me of trying to cobble together a false situation. He said that nothing could be easier than to do this by a coalition cobbled together of malcontents about home rule who forced their vote on the Welsh people at a time when it was unlikely to succeed and where the whole motivation was to kill home rule. Since that time I have lain awake trying to see how it would be possible for the 11 Conservatives in a Welsh Assembly consisting of 60 Members to cobble together this mysterious defeat for all the other parties. Even if you assume a considerable number of Labour rebels, I find it impossible to believe that such a situation could be created. I have also tried to think in the most optimistic terms possible of the likely success of my party in the Assembly elections next year. Even if I was to assume that our membership went up from 11 to 20 and the Labour membership came down from 30 to 20, given the other parties, I am simply unable to conceive how the strange result dreamt up by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, could be arrived at. Despite that, however, I have taken the noble Lord’s argument seriously and tabled a different amendment this time, referring not to 51 per cent but to 55 per cent. That would create a situation where you would need a majority of six or, if you take into account the Presiding Officer, seven. That is the equivalent of a majority in the British Parliament of approaching 70. I do not think anyone could seriously say that a majority of that order does not give an absolute authority for the Government of the day to act, or that it would be possible to manipulate the vote if you had to go to a majority of 55 per cent. I hope that those who want to see this matter hurried forward so that we can go on to Part 4 more speedily will encourage the amendment. My other amendments concern the role of the Secretary of State. I shall deal with them briefly. The Minister who replied to me on the previous occasion said, ““Oh well, he was there to ensure that the views of the rest of the United Kingdom were taken into account””. I am not quite sure how his consultation was going to do this—this one-man consultation of the whole of the rest of the United Kingdom—but the simple fact is that Parliament has a role. Parliament has to approve the referendum order and I have no doubt that if it thought the views of the rest of the United Kingdom were not being taken into account, it would not approve it. I said on the previous occasion that I thought the Minister was implying that the English should have a veto. I cannot really believe that his argument can be taken seriously. My position is today as it was before: I trust the Assembly—certainly with a majority requirement of 55 per cent—and I trust the people of Wales. It is on that basis that I move my amendment. I beg to move.