Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, the Liberal Democrat Amendment No. 79 would, as we have heard, remove the Secretary of State’s power to intervene in the exercise of functions by Welsh Ministers or others where it appears to him or her that this might have a serious adverse impact on water resources supply or quality in England. That power would be replaced by a duty to make representations to the Assembly in such circumstances. I am not clear why the amendment proposes that such representations will be made to the Assembly, as the subject of this clause is executive functions, which are the preserve of Welsh Ministers, not the Assembly. The amendments proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, would remove the Secretary of State’s similar powers of intervention in relation to water so far as the proposed Assembly measures and Bills are concerned. I remind noble Lords that the existing Government of Wales Act makes special provision for issues relating to water because of their cross-border nature, which was a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell. The intervention power in Clause 151 reframes this provision to take account of changes to the devolution settlement made by the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts, made the very important point that things have changed since devolution and we have moved on from the very difficult things that were described that happened in Wales some years ago. Similarly, the intervention powers in Clauses 100 and 106 reflect the fact that the Bill provides for new legislative powers for the Assembly. I shall repeat the example that I gave in Committee. Welsh Ministers have appellate and call-in functions on the authorisation of discharge of pollution to certain waters. If the use of the intervention power were under consideration, perhaps in relation to discharges from a significant industrial installation, the Secretary of State would have to make a judgment on whether discharges, by their effect on rivers flowing into England, might have a serious adverse impact on water quality there. If, having considered the circumstances, the Secretary of State had reasonable grounds to believe that there might be such an impact, he or she would have to decide whether to invoke the intervention powers. It is important to place this intervention power in a practical perspective. The existing powers of intervention in the 1998 Act have never been used, and I see no reason to think that English and Welsh Ministers would not be able to reach agreement on matters relating to water resources in the future. The intervention powers in the Bill are there purely to provide a safeguard. I want to raise two points that I hope will reassure noble Lords who are most worried about this matter. During the Commons Committee stage, Mr Elfyn Llywd MP raised concerns that the water intervention powers could be used to enable a Secretary of State to permit the flooding of Welsh valleys, contrary to the wishes of the Assembly. That point has been raised. My right honourable friend Nick Ainger responded in writing to clarify that he could not envisage such circumstances ever happening; so it is there on the record. Similarly, there was a concern, with the current drought facing London and the south-east of England, that there may be the possibility of a national grid for water, which would involve the extension of reservoirs in places such as Wales. My right honourable friend David Miliband, the Secretary of State for the Environment, has made it clear that such a proposal would be,"““fantastically expensive and fantastically environmentally damaging””," and simply,"““not a good idea””." I do not think, therefore, that the notion that reservoirs in Wales will be extended to supply the parched south-east is remotely realistic. Nevertheless, we have to recognise, as the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, did, the interdependence of England and Wales as regards water resources. Clearly, there is a practical need for a last resort power of intervention to avoid any serious adverse impact on the resources, supply or quality of water in England that may result from some decisions taken in Wales.