Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, we are at one on the question of effective pre-legislative scrutiny, but where I am bound to differ from the amendment is that it makes it quite clear that there is an obligation on Parliament with regard to this situation, which I am bound to have difficulties in accepting. It would be for Parliament to make its decisions on what it required as time for proper pre-legislative scrutiny; it is not a matter for us to put in a Bill—and therefore an Act—given the fact that different circumstances and different orders might lead to different considerations as far as Parliament is concerned. We are at one with the noble Lord on his concern that there should be adequate pre-legislative scrutiny. But Parliament is well versed in pre-legislative scrutiny and we are developing experience and expertise apace in this as time goes on. I think, therefore, that the noble Lord will see the sense in leaving this for Parliament to make its judgments on, according to the orders, rather than for us to write it into this legislation in the rather rigorous format proposed. Any statutory period of pre-legislative scrutiny would reduce flexibility. He will recognise that some Orders in Council will raise such significant issues of competence that the pre-legislative scrutiny might take a considerable time. Other Orders in Council would be so straightforward that to seek to make a statement about the length of time that needed to be considered would be inappropriate. The other aspect that I am concerned about is that it surely makes sense for the pre-legislative scrutiny by both the Assembly and Parliament to take place rather earlier in the process than the noble Lord seems to envisage with his amendments; namely, before approval by the Assembly so that the views can be taken into account before the draft Order in Council is laid before the Assembly. We are concerned, as I am sure the noble Lord is, that when the Assembly is about the legislative process it should have the best possible insight into what is acceptable and advantageous to the people of Wales. We want this pre-legislative scrutiny, therefore, to be early in the process. That, I think, deals with Amendment No. 47. Amendment No. 48 removes the express duty on the Secretary of State to lay the draft approved by the Assembly before Parliament or to refuse to state his reasons. This amendment would remove that duty and leave the matter solely at the discretion of the Secretary of State. We do not favour that approach. We sought to introduce into the Bill appropriate safeguards in relation to the process of seeking legislative competence for the Assembly under this part of the Bill. Amendment No. 48 would effectively take out an important consideration in that regard. I hope that the noble Lord recognises that we share his concern about the legislative process. We differ in our perspectives of how it would work, but I assure him that we are as concerned as he is about the rigour of the process and want the exercise to be conducted in such good terms as to guarantee that the legislation is effective.