Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, we have had a most interesting debate. Not for the first time on this Bill, scarcely an argument has been advanced today that we did not hear in Committee. I am happy to tell the House that the Government’s response to the arguments is exactly the same as it was then. The amendments are not proposing some minor revision of the Bill; instead, the Opposition are telling the Government, ““We know how to do this better. We wish to rewrite the Bill. We will take out Part 3 and implement Part 4””. They did not argue for that, of course, at the previous general election. They are prepared to disavow the fact that the Labour Party argued for enhanced powers of devolution at the last election, and won a majority. It also won a majority in Wales against the main opposition party. Yet the Opposition, in their mild revising role for which this House is renowned, are prepared to rewrite the Bill on that rather flimsy basis. One noble Lord on the Front Bench says how much he abhors aspects of referendums. Then the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, emphasises, equally fluently, how he has suddenly discovered an enormous affection for a referendum, which should take place on Part 4 forthwith. That does not sound like a House in its best revising mood; it sounds like a House bent upon wrecking the crucial part of the Bill. Part 3 is designed to ensure that the Assembly has the tools it needs to do the job and to deliver the right policies to the people of Wales. It will give the Assembly control over the detail of legislation while Parliament will decide on a case-by-case basis whether to grant the Assembly new powers, just as it does now. As the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, said so accurately, these do not sound like revolutionary powers. This is a mild, evolutionary approach to enhanced powers for the Welsh people; exactly the process we said at the last general election we would pursue. It is not as if we are not encouraged by the support of the Welsh people. A recent ICM poll showed that 21 per cent of the Welsh people wanted to keep the status quo, while 39 per cent wanted a more powerful Assembly with full law-making powers. At the two extremes, only 20 per cent wanted to abolish the Assembly, and only 16 per cent were in favour of total independence. It seems yet again that the Government have got the pitch of this Bill just about right in terms of opinion in Wales. We intend to move along those lines with Part 3. If the Opposition had come to the Bill addressing the people of Wales with great clarion calls about how they intended to advance the cause of devolution by immediately moving to Part 4, saying, ““The Government are too reserved about these issues, and we’ll be giving a referendum immediately to the Welsh people on this matter””, and were now proposing these amendments against that kind of background, they might have some credibility. When the position adopted merely sets out to wreck a carefully thought-out Bill with careful stages on how it reaches its objectives—objectives laid down by the Government in the presentation to the Welsh people before the last general election—the amendments can only be rejected.