Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, I am sure that it will not surprise the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, to hear that we on these Benches do not support him on this series of amendments. However, he said some interesting things, which I may comment on. The noble Lord referred to Mr Nick Ainger saying that a referendum would be lost, but I do not think that it would be. Since the Assembly has come into being, the fears that were expressed at the time of the referendum, of south Wales being dominated by Welsh-speaking people in the north and north Wales—particularly my part of north Wales—being dominated by people in the south, have disappeared. The step has been taken; the Assembly is now an accepted part of the life of Wales and, particularly with its new building, is very highly regarded. I think that the real reason why the Government will not have a referendum straight away is that the Labour Party is split on this issue. One person who campaigned on the 1979 referendum—indeed, he made his name in that campaign—was, as the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, will recall very well, the noble Lord, Lord Kinnock, whose absence from the deliberations on the Government of Wales Bill is very noticeable. There are divisions in the Labour Party about the whole concept of devolution. For those of us who campaigned for many years against the Labour Party in Wales for Welsh devolution, it is interesting to see that so many people here now support it who would not have supported it 20 or 30 years ago. The real problem with the referendum is not that it would fail but that the Labour Party would have trouble with it. For that reason, it was interesting to hear the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, say that he would prefer Part 4 to come into effect straight away, without a referendum. Well, that is new—I do not believe that I have heard the Conservative Party say that before.