Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, I had not intended to intervene in the debate on this amendment, particularly after this formidable exchange of legal opinion. However, if we are going to have authoritative statements quoted from outside, we should attach some significance to the views of the noble Lord, Lord Richard, who, with the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, and others studied this matter in great detail. I remind the House that he said of ““this device””—that is what he called it—that,"““Westminster can say they have not devolved primary legislative powers, but depending on the way in which the Order in Council procedure is used, it could in effect be a concealed grant of almost a direct legislative competence down to Cardiff””." If it has not got there, it is pretty close to it and we need some elucidation. We also need elucidation for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, raised. I make two other observations. The first is that I agree with the statements of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, about the press handout. It seems likely that its primary purpose in being issued today was to seek to avoid the Labour Party getting another bloody nose in the Blaenau Gwent by-election. If we are really going to have this House insulted for no other purpose than that, we have got into a pretty shocking state of political play. Secondly, I say to the noble Lord—I shall enlarge on this when we come to later amendments—that I still find his position very hard to understand. Having said that all of this part of the Bill is highly unsatisfactory and that he would much prefer Part 4, he is reluctant to allow a referendum to be held that would allow the people of Wales to say, ““Yes, we want to go on”” with what the noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, called in an earlier debate Gladstonian home rule. He wants it, but he is not prepared to ask the people of Wales whether they want it too. However, we shall return to that subject with later amendments.