Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, we have had a very interesting debate, particularly as the previous two speakers were Welsh Office Ministers and speak with much experience of dealing with these bodies. I certainly agree with the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, that Amendment No. 35 is worth supporting. In the hiatus that has occurred in recent times, it would have been a vast improvement on what actually happened so far as consultation is concerned. I have asked a number of Assembly Members what they think about this amendment and there is a division of opinion among them—particularly in regard to those bodies in Part IV which may only gain functions and only with consent. It is almost as if what we have got here is a bonfire of the quangos and the exclusions are the point at which the matches got wet, or something like that, and did not bring it to a conclusion. The worries that people have are that the bodies in Part IV, in particular, are of great value and have status—I refer to the Arts Council, the National Library and the National Museum—and one asks the question whether it is necessary to bring them into the Assembly. I can see all the arguments why they should be—including the good reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Rowlands, has just given—but the noble Lord, Lord Crickhowell, has also made a case for them being as they are in the amendment. One of the principles that we have got to address is that the amendment enables participation on a wider scale than would be the case if they were in-house in the Assembly, although of course the democratic aspect of that is extremely important and I do not underestimate it. There is also the issue of accountability. I certainly wondered at the time that if certain bodies which no longer exist as quangos had been made very accountable by, perhaps, having to report on a quarterly basis in front of Ministers and committees of the Assembly and being asked some very awkward questions as to what was happening, whether that different kind of model might have worked. It certainly might have worked in the case of the Arts Council. When one considers Amendment No. 35, if consultation had occurred perhaps things might have been a lot different. I think the noble Lord, Lord Temple-Morris, did us a big service by putting these questions and issues in front of the House. I think that on balance there is a case for retaining some of the remaining quangos—the five in Part IV—but it is extremely important that they are accountable to the Assembly, a democratic body, which can examine exactly what is going on so far as the finances and the running of these bodies is concerned. This is a mixed bag of amendments; they have been very helpful in producing the debate, particularly the suggestion in Amendment No. 104 on consolidation. It seems a good idea to consolidate all this so that we know exactly where we are with these bodies.