Government of Wales Bill

I am grateful to the Members of the Committee who tabled the amendments. They may be probing so far as the noble Baroness is concerned, but they strike the usual terror into the Government so she must recognise that I expect them to be in a perfect state and will address them as though they were. I will certainly not get involved in textual analysis of them but shall deal with the issue of principle, as she asked me to do. That issue is straightforward in terms of our response to the amendments. The mechanism specified in the Bill for the funding of the commissioners is the same in principle as that established for the Children’s Commissioner at present. I cannot give the noble Baroness an immediate answer on the progress of the Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill, but she will be among the first to know when it resumes its progress in another place. Under this Bill, the level of funding for the Children’s Commissioner will, as now, be considered by Welsh Ministers and then put before the Assembly as part of its budget. It is intended that that will also be the case for the Commissioner for Older People, a point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Livsey. As we are all aware, the splitting of the legislature and the executive will formalise and clarify the Assembly’s role in scrutinising Welsh Ministers. As part of that role, Assembly Members will have the power to scrutinise the Welsh Ministers’ budget. They will be aided in that part of it which relates to the Children’s Commissioner by the provision of an estimate, as provided for in paragraph 6 of Schedule 2 to the Care Standards Act. If they are not satisfied that the commissioners receive adequate funding, they will be able to hold the Welsh Ministers to account, thus ensuring proper and effective political and democratic accountability, which we all seek. There is absolutely no suggestion that this will affect the independence or importance of the role of the commissioners. Let me emphasise the obvious points. At a UK level, a parallel can be drawn with the creation of the Commission for Equality and Human Rights by the Equality Act, which received Royal Assent on 16 February. Paragraph 38 of Schedule 1 to that Act provides that the new commission is to be funded through grant in aid provided by the Secretary of State of the sponsor department—in other words, in the same way as the Commission for Racial Equality is funded and as is proposed to fund the Children’s Commissioner and the Commissioner for Older People under this Bill. So far as I am aware, there is no suggestion that the work of the Commission for Racial Equality has been undermined or compromised in any way by the funding arrangements which Parliament put in place for it. I therefore see no reason why the similar funding arrangements that we are making for the commissioners in Wales should in any way affect their independence. The Auditor General for Wales and the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales are treated differently with regard to the financial provisions in the Bill, because they are Crown appointments and have functions relating to both the Welsh Ministers and the Assembly Commission. I hope that I have given the assurance that we are following the same procedures with regard to these commissioners in Wales as obtain with comparable commissioners operating on a UK basis, who certainly are funded through such mechanisms. I do not think that anyone in the Committee would suggest that they were not able to fulfil their highly valuable independent roles.