Government of Wales Bill

My Lords, I reassure the noble Lord that I have no sleights of hand. I have not read the quotations he refers to; I have not seen them. But I would like to draw the House’s attention to the fact that I have been interrupted twice, both by Scotsmen, when we are talking about the government of Wales. The Government are grateful to the Constitution Committee for its recognition that the proposal to ban dual candidacy is a manifesto commitment. We also note the committee’s recommendation that the Government should set out clearly what alternative approaches were considered and why these options were rejected in favour of the dual candidacy ban. The Government agree that it is important for the House to be informed on this point, and we therefore intend to address this recommendation in detail in our response to the committee’s report. I now turn to the Assembly’s legislative powers. In doing so I should like to acknowledge and welcome the substantial contribution which the noble Lord, Lord Holme of Cheltenham, and his committee have made in considering the constitutional issues raised by the Bill. We shall take very careful note of all their observations. I very much welcome the Constitution Committee’s clear conclusion that,"““the delegation of law making powers to an elected body is indeed very different from delegating them to Ministers””." Since 1999, the Assembly has been able to shape much subordinate legislation in a distinctive way so as to give effect to its own policies. However, it has remained dependent on the timetable and priorities for legislation in this Parliament in order to achieve anything which required either changes to primary legislation or new provision. Moreover, the approach to giving the Assembly legislative powers has been inconsistent. Some Bills have prescribed a great deal of detail and others have given the Assembly more discretion. In June 2005, the Government set out in their White Paper Better Governance for Wales, a three-stage approach to tackling this issue. The first stage was a commitment to draft parliamentary Bills in a way which gives the Assembly wider and more permissive powers to determine the detail of how the provisions should be implemented in Wales. These so-called framework powers were a key recommendation of the Richard commission—the famous paragraph 13.2—and were the brainchild of my noble friend Lord Rowlands. I pay tribute to him for his work on this. Framework powers are not dependent on the passage of this Bill. Indeed, one such provision, Clause 17 of the NHS Redress Bill, has recently completed its passage though this House. However, in recognition of the breadth of framework powers, the Bill includes a provision to ensure that they are exercised not by Welsh Ministers but by the Assembly as a whole following separation. The mechanism set out in Part 3 of the Bill is the second stage, developing the existing devolution settlement, which was approved by referendum in 1997. Parliament will decide on a case-by-case basis whether to give the Assembly power to legislate by Assembly measure on particular, clearly defined matters. The Assembly will be able to request that competence on its own initiative by seeking an Order in Council. I have made available and placed in the Library of the House information on how the Government envisage the mechanism in Part 3 of the Bill would work. The Government attach great importance to Parliament having the opportunity to conduct pre-legislative scrutiny of any proposed Order in Council seeking to grant the Assembly legislative competence. The papers placed in the Library include examples of the memorandums that would accompany any proposed Order in Council. I am fully aware that a number of noble Lords are concerned that they should have a proper opportunity to contribute to this process. It is of course for this House to consider how that may best be done. The Welsh Affairs Committee in another place and the relevant Assembly committee may also be involved in pre-legislative scrutiny. It is the Government’s hope that such scrutiny can be arranged in a concurrent and complementary way. The Constitution Committee has made some constructive proposals on this issue and I am sure that the House will wish to consider them most carefully. In this House, statutory instruments are also sometimes considered in Grand Committee, which allows any Member to contribute. These are all options. I stress again that this is a matter for the House to determine. An Order in Council would only have the effect of altering the Assembly’s legislative competence. The substance of any changes to the law would be contained in the Assembly measures passed by the Assembly itself. Clause 97 of the Bill sets out the minimum Assembly scrutiny procedures, which proposed Assembly measures must generally undergo before they can be passed by the Assembly and then be enacted. Part 3 does represents not a fundamental change to the current devolution settlement, but rather a development of the settlement that will make it easier for the Assembly to deliver for the people of Wales. Just as at present, it would be for Parliament to determine what additional powers the Assembly may require. While the Assembly will be given greater discretion over the detail of Welsh legislation, Parliament will remain in charge. The development of the devolution settlement will help the Assembly break through the legislative logjam at Westminster. The Assembly has to wait for many years in many cases for its requests for primary legislation to be met. This has been the case even with non-controversial legislation such as the Bill to create a single public services ombudsman for Wales. Part 3 of the Bill therefore continues the process of giving the Assembly greater discretion to legislate on matters that are within devolved areas of responsibility. It also allows the initiative to come from Wales to seek measure-making powers. However, these powers will be granted only where Parliament agrees that this should be the case. Part 4 of the Bill provides for the Assembly to acquire full law-making powers over all devolved subjects without further recourse to Parliament. This is the third stage, as set out in the White Paper. However, because this is a fundamental constitutional change, the Bill ensures that it can take place only if it has been approved by the people of Wales in a referendum. Clause 102 sets out clearly that the referendum is to be whether the Assembly Act provisions should come into force. In this way we hope to settle for a generation the distracting debate over the extent of the Assembly’s powers. By providing a mechanism for achieving primary powers, the onus will be on the supporters of change to win the argument. Instead of a constant debate about the Assembly’s constitutional arrangements, the challenge will instead be to deliver the right policies for the people of Wales and to rise to the challenge set out in the Bill. Supporters of primary powers for the Assembly have argued for a direct move to primary powers, as recommended by the Richard commission. The Government do not believe that such a proposal would command general support among the people of Wales at this time. As the recent ICM poll showed, support for devolution has consolidated since 1999, and a growing number of people support greater powers for the Assembly, but supporters of full law-making powers are still in a minority. In the Government’s view, the day when a referendum on full law-making powers would pass is still some years away. The Government therefore believe that it is right to proceed with a referendum on primary powers only when there is broad cross-party consensus in favour of such a move. That is why the Bill provides that a referendum could be triggered only with the support of two-thirds of all Assembly Members and of both Houses of Parliament. An unsuccessful referendum on primary powers would do profound damage to the whole devolution settlement. It is therefore right that we proceed with caution. Parts 3 and 4, together with the changes to the electoral arrangements in Part 1, are clearly the most novel and contentious aspects of the Bill. They are also the provisions that have had the most thorough scrutiny in another place. During more than 27 hours allocated for scrutiny at Committee and Report stages, 19 hours were devoted to those provisions. Part 5 contains the financial provisions. Its key provision is in Clause 116, which creates the Welsh Consolidated Fund. That is to ensure that there is a ““neutral”” account where funds can be held. Welsh Ministers will be able to obtain payments out of the Welsh Consolidated Fund only if they are authorised or deemed to be authorised by Budget resolutions of the Assembly. Part 6 contains further necessary provisions, relating, for example, to the treatment of public records. It also makes detailed provision for the transition from the current Assembly, as constituted by the Government of Wales Act 1998, to a separate executive and legislature. Those changes are to come about for the May 2007 Assembly elections. To tackle the problem of low turnout in Assembly elections, the Bill also enables the Assembly Commission to promote awareness of the devolved system of government and of the Assembly elections. This it may do either directly or by making grants to others—in particular, to the Electoral Commission. In conclusion, the Bill will enable the Assembly and the Welsh Assembly Government to serve the people of Wales more effectively. They will have a legislature which can hold the Welsh Assembly Government to account more clearly. They will have an Assembly which can pass laws which are tailored to Welsh needs and developed and debated close to the people whom they are meant to benefit. At the same time, the balance of authority between Westminster and the Assembly will be maintained, with Parliament being the ultimate arbiter. I finish with a short poem by that great Welsh poet, R S Thomas. It was first published in 1946 in the magazine Wales, edited by Keidrych Rhys. I read it so that we can compare Thomas’s bleak and desolate vision of Wales at that time with the self-confidence and vitality of modern-day Wales. Appropriately, it is entitled, ““The Old Language””."      ““England, what have you done to make the speech""      My fathers used a stranger to my lips,""      An offence to the ear, a shackle on the tongue""      That would fit new thoughts to an abiding tune?""      Answer me now. The workshop where they wrought""      Stands idle, and thick dust covers their tools.""      The blue metal of streams, the copper and gold""      Seams in the wood are all unquarried; the leaves’""      Intricate filigree falls, and who shall renew""      Its brisk pattern? When spring wakens the hearts""      Of the young children to sing, what song shall be theirs?””." I commend the Bill to the House.