Transmissible Spongiform Encephalopathies Regulations 2006

My Lords, following the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and other noble Lords, I thank the noble Countess, Lady Mar, for initiating this debate and laying this Motion to annul, which allows us to have this discussion this evening. This is a complex and difficult issue for lay people to get their minds around; nevertheless, it is a very important one. That has been indicated by the way, as the noble Duke said, it keeps coming back to be debated in this House. This is a calmer and less hectic occasion than the last time the noble Countess sought to annul a regulation. That took place during the ping-pong on the Animal Health Bill, when emotions were roused and the noble Countess was roundly accused of all sorts of things, maligned and, at one stage, accused of undermining the constitution of the very country by what she was trying to do. The country survived her attempts to do that, as has the noble Countess, and we are here to discuss it again. Before I turn to some of the issues raised, I want to thank and applaud the Government for some of the more positive aspects of these regulations. In its 22nd report of the current Session—it does beaver away—the Merits of Statutory Instruments Committee said that the regulations,"““effect a welcome consolidation of a number of instruments dealing with controls to eradicate transmissible spongiform encephalopathies in cattle, sheep and goats””." The consolidating aspect of these regulations is to be welcomed, as is what is described in one of the supporting memoranda in our briefing papers as an ““innovative”” approach by the Government in setting them out clearly and in a sensible way, which is easier to amend in future, and in writing them in plain English. I am not sure that everyone who reads them will understand them immediately; nevertheless, I believe that that has happened. It is interesting that, in using plain English in a sensible presentational layout, Defra is commended as being innovative. Perhaps it should lend some of its staff to other departments. At the moment, I am dealing with the Electoral Administration Bill, which is an absolute minefield of non-plain English and non-sensible layout. Also, as I understand it, these regulations have been condensed into 42 pages instead of the 221 pages of the 2002 regulations. That is surely not only a step forward but an indication to civil servants everywhere who draft these things that it is possible to say things more concisely without saying less. These things are to be welcomed, and they are not trivial because nowadays much legislation is a minefield of gobbledygook. When the House discussed the 2002 regulations, my noble friend Lord Livsey of Talgarth moved an amendment to the noble Countess’s Motion and then the Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, moved an amendment to her Motion. It all got incredibly complicated and, apparently, constitutionally difficult. My noble friend would have liked to be here this evening but, unfortunately, he has been suffering from bronchitis and he is not quite as resilient as the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. The noble Baroness may be of a more resistant genotype than my noble friend; he apologises for not being here. I shall give the gist of what my noble friend said four years ago. First, he made a general complaint that, once again, this was making law by subordinate legislation in complex areas that would benefit from a more detailed approach. If we could subject a statutory instrument of this kind to a Grand Committee-type afternoon’s discussion, that would be beneficial to everyone. Again—this is a general point—if we are reforming the procedure of the House, we have to find ways in which complex and difficult issues such as this can be better debated, rather than through a Motion like this on the Floor of the House. So I repeat the comments that my noble friend made four years ago. My noble friend also said—this has been echoed by a number of speakers this evening—that these regulations are rather over the top and gold-plated. In particular, I echo the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Hylton, about the powers of the inspectors. That is precisely the kind of thing that we should be able to scrutinise better and to which we should be able to persuade the Government to make changes, which is very difficult. My noble friend’s amendment referred specifically to appeals, on which the position is better now than it was four years ago. I remember the ping-pong on appeals that occurred during the passage of the Animal Health Bill. The noble Baroness, Lady Byford, and I managed to get some small improvements to the Bill at the bitter end of the ping-pong, and I think that there may be a better recognition of that kind of thing in these regulations. The final part of my noble friend’s amendment dealt with what he referred to as,"““the never-ending march of technology””." A number of speakers have made that point this evening. Four years ago, the House passed a resolution, with the support of the Government, which called upon Her Majesty’s Government,"““to keep the regulations under review in the light of scientific and technological developments relating to TSE””.—[Official Report, 15/5/02, cols. 382-83.]" Underlying what a lot of people have said this evening is a belief that the Government have not really been doing that. Perhaps the Minister could tell us what changes have been made to the regulations and how they differ from the 2002 regulations in response to the Motion that the House agreed to at the time. What have the Government been doing to keep up with the never-ending march of technology and, in particular, to respond to the changes in science that have been taking place? I listened to the noble Countess, Lady Mar, in awe. The House is very—what is the word I am looking for? I am trying to compliment her, but I cannot think of the word. We really benefit a great deal from having her here to ask these questions. I do not know how much of what she says is right and how much is wrong; it is very difficult for a layperson to know such things. However, I know that she is asking a lot of the right questions, which I think deserve an answer. As far as TSE in sheep is concerned—and the whole business of genotypes, more susceptible strains and less susceptible strains—I think that we are back to the questions that concerned many of us a great deal when we were discussing Part 2, if I remember rightly, of the Animal Health Bill. It is all very well breeding out certain genotypes in order to eliminate scrapie, if that can happen; it may be that it cannot happen and that new forms of scrapie will come that, because the other forms have been bred out, attack the other kinds of sheep. However, the real danger, which is quite clear to us all, is that in breeding out those genotypes you may also be breeding out the desirable characteristics of those genotypes, which have evolved over hundreds and thousands of years and which in future may not be there in response to a wholly different kind of attack on the sheep flock. That has been the concern about the Government’s approach and, frankly, that concern remains. However, that is a more general thing, which does not necessarily affect these regulations immediately. On the top side, the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, explained how huge progress, in my view, has been made in tackling BSE. I understand the points that she made, but we cannot avoid the fact that in 1992 there were 37,000 cases of BSE in this country, whereas now the number is down not quite to single figures but to double figures each year. It is 20 years since BSE was diagnosed, discovered, invented or whatever happened then. I believe that a good enough case has been made for the connection between BSE and Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease in human beings for us to take the action that we are taking. Even if the two have nothing to do with each other, eliminating BSE in cattle is worth while in itself. I believe that progress has been made in that area. We all look forward to the lifting of the restrictions on the slaughtering and sale of cattle, to which the noble Baroness referred. I welcome the regulations with two cheers, I think, in so far as I fully understand them. In particular, I welcome on behalf of these Benches the questions that the noble Countess raised and I very much look forward to hearing the Government’s response.