Prevention and Suppression of Terrorism

I was not at the Committee sitting, but I appreciate the hon. Gentleman’s comments. I would also be interested to hear what the Minister has to say on that subject. I turn to the practical working of control orders. I wonder whether the limited surveillance resources that we have allow control orders to be exercised properly. I have heard from some of the individuals involved in mounting such covert and overt operations that such matters as the working time directive make covert surveillance very difficult. Can the Minister give me an indication of whether we have enough resources to carry out the surveillance for the number of control orders that she has mentioned so far? That question leads me to speculate about the limited number of infringements of control orders. While I am delighted that such infringements are very few, I am cynical, because I have been involved in such matters in the past, and I wonder whether infringements simply have not been detected because of the lack of resources available for surveillance. I appreciate that I may be treading on ground of which the Minister is not necessarily aware in great detail, but I would be grateful if she would reply, verbally or in writing. We have been told that the Joint Committee on Human Rights has five distinct reservations about the control order regime as it stands. First, the Joint Committee questioned whether a renewal should be allowed without Parliament having had the opportunity to debate whether a derogation to permit deprivations of liberty that challenge article 5.1 of the European convention on human rights should be allowed. That is the point that my right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Rushcliffe made earlier. Secondly, the Joint Committee asked whether procedural protections are compatible with article 5.4 of the ECHR and the right to a fair trial in determination of a criminal charge and to a fair hearing in the determination of civil rights under article 6.1. Thirdly, it asked whether controlees are being subjected to inhuman and degrading treatment, contrary to article 3 of the ECHR. Fourthly, the Joint Committee wondered whether the control order regime has a disproportionate impact on the rights of family members—we have already heard about that particular proviso—under articles 8, 10 and 11. Lastly, it asked whether the control order regime is being applied disproportionately to foreign nationals in breach of article 14 of the ECHR. Those are serious charges against the control order regime and I would be interested to hear how sure the Government are that they could survive a challenge in the courts on whether they are able to derogate from those aspects of the ECHR, or whether they would get egg on their face. Again, if the Minister can give me some reason to feel confident about that it would reassure me. We view the control order approach only as a temporary measure, to be replaced by proper judicial process. That is why it needs to be reviewed constantly, kept to a minimum and eventually replaced. The Minister is aware of the consensus produced by the attacks of 7 and 21 July and I am reluctant to destabilise it, but I must make it clear that our lack of opposition to this renewal is based on the fact that we see it as a temporary measure. I hope that the Minister can reassure me. In a speech on 2 February, the Home Secretary referred to the Government’s attempts to find a legal model to provide the necessary safeguards to allow intercept material to be used as evidence in court. That will allow us further to minimise the use of control orders and, I trust, to get rid of them completely in due course. My experience of the use of intercept makes me aware that we must be extremely careful to defend technology, techniques and sources. Of course, my experience of those techniques is about 10 years out of date and I have no doubt that both time and technology have moved on, but if intercept evidence is admissible in court, we shall be able to obtain more prosecutions and fewer people will be held under control orders, so I welcome what the Home Secretary said about it. Any further light that the Minister can throw on the matter will be welcome. We have already referred to memorandums of understanding, about which I have two questions. First, how will the Government deal with an illegal challenge to deportation under the ECHR, where an MOU has already been achieved? There will be difficulties in achieving more than the few MOUs to which the Minister has already referred so, secondly, how will the Government deal with controlees whose parent country fails to agree on an MOU? What will happen to them? In paragraphs 71 and 72 of his report Lord Carlile says that it would not be acceptable for significant restrictions on liberty to continue for years on end. If the MOUs cannot be agreed, what course of action will be open to the Government? How will they bring themselves into line with Lord Carlile’s statements in paragraphs 71 and 72? I welcome the Home Secretary’s intention to simplify and consolidate terrorism legislation. That is the building brick for Conservative Members, because too many laws lie unused and too many hastily designed laws are used for inappropriate purposes. Despite the different stories in the press, I hope that we can try to move forward on a consensual basis for the remaining period of the legislation, so I am delighted that the Chancellor seems to be edging towards the creation of a single budget for security purposes. I have no doubt that that will lead to a single Department and a single Minister. If the Government are heading in that direction, I could not be more delighted, and on that aspect they will enjoy consensus in full measure and my 110 per cent. support. Although we shall not oppose the further extension of the control order regime by 12 months, I accept the conclusions of Lord Carlile’s report and I understand that control orders must be replaced by a proper judicial process. I look forward to effective legislation that will defend not just the lives of our constituents but their liberties as well.