Identity Cards Bill

That must have been a good 30 seconds out of the first 36 minutes. It was his own hon. Friend, the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), who made the point at almost 8 o’clock that he had not yet addressed the issue. We will be able to check the record tomorrow. In any event, the complexity of the debate rather masks the simplicity of the issues at stake here. The point to be made here is not greatly dissimilar to that which we made in relation to compulsion, namely that if identity cards were as good as was claimed, why was compulsion necessary. If the Government’s plans are as well costed and as affordable as they would have us believe, they should have nothing to fear from Lords amendment No. 70. Whether one takes the LSE report or the KPMG report, or whatever basis one wishes to proceed on, the basic truth of the matter is that no one really knows what the cost of identity cards will be. That is possibly why the Government prefer the amendment tabled by the right hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras to Lords amendment No. 70. We all know that the acceptability of ID cards to the general public declines as cost increases. The Minister has said that he would not pay £300 for an ID card—that may yet prove to be a hostage to fortune—which is not a point of principle, but an entirely pragmatic point relating to cost. Although he will undoubtedly have moved on to greater and higher things in government, I wonder what his position will be when and if the cost hits £300. The Minister has also told us that the model for financing ID cards follows that of the UK Passport Service, so it is clear that the cost will impact directly on the individual rather than its coming from the Government. Earlier, the right hon. Member for Haltemprice and Howden (David Davis) used the expression ““plastic poll tax””, which is exceptionally apposite. The hon. Member for Dundee, East (Stewart Hosie) has referred to the Government estimate that the cost of identity fraud and identity theft is in the region of £1.7 billion. However, that figure includes fraud associated with credit and debit cards, the bulk of which takes place online. The introduction of an identity card will make no difference to the incidence of such fraud, because biometrics are useless in relation to online transactions. The Minister has mentioned the UK Passport Service, but the parallel is not valid, because it does not rely on the database or the register. Furthermore, the UK Passport Service does not require the installation of a reader in every public service office, which will include every benefits office, hospital and GP surgery in England and Wales—the Scottish Executive have more sense than to install such machines. Those costs, which will be significant, make quantification even more difficult. The Minister has said that Lords amendment No. 70 is unprecedented and novel, and he is absolutely right. He has also said that it is outrageous that the Government should have to explain the cost of the measure before they implement it, because this is a manifesto Bill. If that is outrageous, the cost should have been in the manifesto to allow people to form a judgment at the polls—in that regard, we have seen the worst of Labour party manifestos in the past few weeks. The protection of the taxpayer, which is entirely unprecedented, is appropriate, because the whole Bill is entirely unprecedented. The Bill seeks to rewrite the relationship between the citizen and the state as we have always understood it in this country. If the Government want to take that course, the least they can do is tell us the cost of that step before they take it. Lords amendment No. 70 is clear. Subsection (2) specifies that the report should contain a detailed estimate of the revenue and capital costs and that a statement of expected benefits should be produced. Subsection (3) covers the extent of the cost estimates.